Why are there no "The EAST" primary destination signs?

[KeithW]

We could also replace The South bc "the south" really means London and the South East. As someone commented upthread, this regionalised naming system is a London thing bc no one outside of London identifies with regions., I'm pretty sure there is a sign on the M25 for "East Anglia" - where is that? It's not a city or county, it won't appear on any satnav. No one identifies as East Anglian, definitely not people in Essex who pivot more towards London than rural Suffolk and Norfolk.

I disagree - approaching the A1(M) at Leeming Bar along the A684 there are only 2 signed destinations The SOUTH and the NORTH. The reason for that is very simple, unless you know the area well its unlikely that Scotch Corner or Boroughbridge would be that helpful.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.3105501 ... authuser=0

At the end of the day signs like these have only 2 purposes
1) Get you on the correct road.
2) Get you heading in the right direction.

On some motorways getting this right is rather important, on the M6 its 11 miles from Penrith to Shap where you can turn road if you got it wrong.

The sign for East Anglia on the M25 is secondary as it says for EAST ANGLIA follow A12. EAST ANGLIA is very definitely a region, being the bit that sticks out into the North Sea. Basically it consists of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and parts of Cambridgeshire and is historically the old kingdom of the East Angles.

Essex is not and never has been part of East Anglia, in regional terms its one of the Home Counties i.e. commuting distance from London although with modern trains commuting from much further is quite common.

[Owain]

We could also replace The South bc "the south" really means London and the South East. As someone commented upthread, this regionalised naming system is a London thing bc no one outside of London identifies with regions...

On approach to both Route 42 and the M5, you get signs for 'SOUTH WEST'.

By that point, I don't think 'SOUTH' appears as an option, but you do of course get 'London'.

[trickstat]

We could also replace The South bc "the south" really means London and the South East. As someone commented upthread, this regionalised naming system is a London thing bc no one outside of London identifies with regions., I'm pretty sure there is a sign on the M25 for "East Anglia" - where is that? It's not a city or county, it won't appear on any satnav. No one identifies as East Anglian, definitely not people in Essex who pivot more towards London than rural Suffolk and Norfolk.

It's here approaching the A12 junction anti-clockwise: https://goo.gl/maps/a986HZzF5crbkQcx7

You could make an argument depending on your definition of East Anglia that parts of it are actually better served by using the M11 instead of the A12

Agreed. I think that most of the time, the best route from where that sign is to Norwich would be via the M11.

[trickstat]

Essex is not and never has been part of East Anglia, in regional terms its one of the Home Counties i.e. commuting distance from London although with modern trains commuting from much further is quite common.

Essex is in the East of England Region but only part of that could also be called East Anglia. The region also includes Beds and Herts and I don't think anyone in Luton or Watford, for example, thinks they live in East Anglia. Although the former town's local ITV Channel is Anglia.

[skiddaw05]

No one identifies as East Anglian

I beg your pardon, some of us definitely do!

[KeithW]

It's here approaching the A12 junction anti-clockwise: https://goo.gl/maps/a986HZzF5crbkQcx7

You could make an argument depending on your definition of East Anglia that parts of it are actually better served by using the M11 instead of the A12

Agreed. I think that most of the time, the best route from where that sign is to Norwich would be via the M11.

Google maps disagrees as do I even allowing for the substandard A140
Better yet it avoids the Girton Interchange

The M11/A11 via Stump Cross would be a better option if not for the traffic at Fiveways Roundabout, right now its stop start for over a mile. They spent a LOT of money dualling the A11 but left that monstrosity.

[skiddaw05]

It's here approaching the A12 junction anti-clockwise: https://goo.gl/maps/a986HZzF5crbkQcx7

You could make an argument depending on your definition of East Anglia that parts of it are actually better served by using the M11 instead of the A12

Agreed. I think that most of the time, the best route from where that sign is to Norwich would be via the M11.

Google maps disagrees as do I even allowing for the substandard A140
Better yet it avoids the Girton Interchange

The M11/A11 via Stump Cross would be a better option if not for the traffic at Fiveways Roundabout, right now its stop start for over a mile. They spent a LOT of money dualling the A11 but left that monstrosity.

Also not helped by the inadequacies of the M11 between J8 and J9

[Vierwielen]

According to various maps on Wikipedia, during the final years of the Heptarchythe Kingdom of East Anglia occupied modern Norfolk and Suffolk, the Kingdom of the East Saxons occupied modern day Essex, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and parts of Buckinghamshire while Canbridgeshire and the other parts of Buckinghamshire and Bedfordshire were in the Kingdom f Mercia. Therefore calling the Kingdom of the East Saxon "East Anglia" might be incorrect. However when Danelaw was established, Guthrun ruled over most of the territory described above. Initially he overran much of Wessex, but was defeated by ALfred the Great and withdrew to territory of East Anglia, was baptised and took on the name "Æthelstan".

From the point of view of signposting "East Anglia", both the M1 and A1(M) go through the territory once ruled by Æthelstan,so one could not really signpost East Anglia. It might be sensible to signpost the A14 as leading to East Anglia, but then so does the M1 and A1.

[Osthagen]

We could also replace The South bc "the south" really means London and the South East. As someone commented upthread, this regionalised naming system is a London thing bc no one outside of London identifies with regions., I'm pretty sure there is a sign on the M25 for "East Anglia" - where is that? It's not a city or county, it won't appear on any satnav. No one identifies as East Anglian, definitely not people in Essex who pivot more towards London than rural Suffolk and Norfolk.

East Anglia normally means the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk, and parts of and occasionally the entirety of Cambridgeshire is included as well. Parts of Essex, particularly northern Essex, have East Anglian characteristics, but the name Essex literally means 'East Saxons' as this was the territory of the East Saxon Kingdom in the 6th-9th centuries, meaning by definition it isn't 'Anglian' in the true sense of the word.

I broadly agree with you. Regional destinations are overused. Their use should be limited IMO to cases where a route takes long-distance traffic unambiguously to somewhere far north of your location. Otherwise, control destinations should be used. For example, when you approach A1(M) J49, you get the following:

A1(M): The NORTH, Scotch Corner
A168: Thirsk, Teesside (A19)

The NORTH here isn't appropriate at this key junction, because if traffic wants Hartlepool, Sunderland, Tynemouth, or any number of other destinations that are a long distance north of the driver's current location, they're going to want the A168 for the A19.
I'd say the following would be better, and more in line with the rest of the network:

A1(M): Darlington, Newcastle; Penrith (A66)
A168: Thirsk; Teesside, Sunderland (A19)

On approach to both Route 42 and the M5, you get signs for 'SOUTH WEST'.

By that point, I don't think 'SOUTH' appears as an option, but you do of course get 'London'.

The '42-M5 link between the M1 and SW England is a relative oddity in terms of regional signage. Those routes are not only about the only ones actually signed towards 'The SOUTH WEST' (though the A75 is signed to 'South West Scotland'), but excluding one stray sign on the A66, they're the only ones signed towards 'The NORTH EAST' as well, see M5 North approaching J4A.

The SOUTH occurs definitely occurs on the signage for the M40 sliproad on the A46, approaching Stratford-upon-Avon.

Strangely, the A42 turnoff J23A on the M1 is signed for 'The SOUTH WEST', but straight ahead you get 'The SOUTH, Leicester, London'. Surely 'The SOUTH EAST' would be more appropriate here?

[KeithW]

According to various maps on Wikipedia, during the final years of the Heptarchythe Kingdom of East Anglia occupied modern Norfolk and Suffolk, the Kingdom of the East Saxons occupied modern day Essex, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and parts of Buckinghamshire while Canbridgeshire and the other parts of Buckinghamshire and Bedfordshire were in the Kingdom f Mercia. Therefore calling the Kingdom of the East Saxon "East Anglia" might be incorrect. However when Danelaw was established, Guthrun ruled over most of the territory described above. Initially he overran much of Wessex, but was defeated by ALfred the Great and withdrew to territory of East Anglia, was baptised and took on the name "Æthelstan".

From the point of view of signposting "East Anglia", both the M1 and A1(M) go through the territory once ruled by Æthelstan,so one could not really signpost East Anglia. It might be sensible to signpost the A14 as leading to East Anglia, but then so does the M1 and A1.

The Angles were a germanic tribe who settled on the east coast in the post Roman period. Bede wrote that in 449AD the first arrival of the Anglo-Saxons was noted and said they came from three tribes, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, who themselves came from different parts of Germany and Denmark noting that the Angles were from Angeln in northern Germany; the Saxons were from what is now Lower Saxony, also in northern Germany and the Jutes were from Jutland, now part of Denmark.

East Anglia was that part of the east coast occupied by the Angles which makes sense as its relative sheltered route from modern Emden or Bremerhaven to the east coast around Great Yarmouth sheltered by the Frisian Islands for a good stretch. Bede lived from 673 AD and 735 AD . He was highly enough considered that he would later reinterred in Durham Cathedral. He wrote the first real history of southern Britain (Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum), in total he wrote over 40 books including ecclesiatical and historical works.

The peoples of the east cost were then referred to as the the Gyrwe (pronounced Yeerweh) or Fen dwellers, the Vikings were late comers arriving over 100 years after the death of Bede. I would love to claim Anglian ancestry but I know my paternal line is from West Sussex and my maternal line was from the Aldersons which first appeared in Middlesex.

[KeithW]

Also not helped by the inadequacies of the M11 between J8 and J9

Well that's what happens when you massively upgrade as small regional airport, widen the A120 and plug in the upgraded A14 (A604 as was) without upgrading the M11 from J8 to J14. The Newmarket bypass has the same problems, it doesn't take much to bring everything to a halt. In the morning rush hour the queue for the Madingley Road exit which has barely changed since 1980 can reach as far back as J12.

Then plugin the massive growth of Cambridge

Cambridge University Astronomical site 1953 - it wasn't much different in 1973


Same location today
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2151852 ... authuser=0

[Ishtaria1980]

The OS website used to claim somewhere much further north on that definition, somewhere in Derbyshire I think, though I never managed to worked out what assumption they were using for where the sea stops being the sea in each estuary.

There's Coton-in-the-Elms in South Derbyshire which is "furthest from the sea" and Morton in North Derbyshire (just west of Tibshelf) which is in the centre of the longest N-S and E-W axes. Repton was once the capital of ancient Mercia and Derbyshire also straddles the cultural north/south divide.

Therefore as a Derbeian, I pronounce Derby should be known as the centre of the u̶n̶i̶v̶e̶r̶s̶e̶ road network and all RCS should be centered around Derby and not London

[Kinitawowi]

The region also includes Beds and Herts and I don't think anyone in Luton or Watford, for example, thinks they live in East Anglia. Although the former town's local ITV Channel is Anglia.

That doesn't mean much though. There are parts of Norfolk (particularly the North and West) where the local ITV Channel is Yorkshire.

*grouses in 18 years spent living in Hunstanton with the news coming from Grimsby*

[KeithW]

Essex is in the East of England Region but only part of that could also be called East Anglia. The region also includes Beds and Herts and I don't think anyone in Luton or Watford, for example, thinks they live in East Anglia. Although the former town's local ITV Channel is Anglia.

What is now Bedfordshire and Herts was part of the kingdom of Mercia I believe. The eastern border of Mercia was basically a line running south from the Wash to Epping Forest.

In England kingdoms and counties were sub divided into Wapentakes or Hundreds . Typically they had their own court and would be expected to raise a militia when necessary. At a time when roads were muddy tracks that were often impassable in winter self sufficiency was essential.

Here is a map of the Hundreds of Bedfordshire in 1830.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundreds_of_Bedfordshire

[Bryn666]

The region also includes Beds and Herts and I don't think anyone in Luton or Watford, for example, thinks they live in East Anglia. Although the former town's local ITV Channel is Anglia.

That doesn't mean much though. There are parts of Norfolk (particularly the North and West) where the local ITV Channel is Yorkshire.

*grouses in 18 years spent living in Hunstanton with the news coming from Grimsby*

That was a political dispute between Tyne Tees and Yorkshire over the Bilsdale transmitter. It was handed to Tyne Tees and therefore as compensation to Yorkshire, Anglia lost the Belmont transmitter.

[KeithW]

That was a political dispute between Tyne Tees and Yorkshire over the Bilsdale transmitter. It was handed to Tyne Tees and therefore as compensation to Yorkshire, Anglia lost the Belmont transmitter.

Well it was political all right - see T Dan Smith, but Bilsdale really only covers County Durham, North Yorkshire and Teesdale or at least it did until it burned down in 2021. The replacement only went into service in Feb this year. Its currently operated by Arqiva who have been running the UK transmitters since 2005. The transmitter for Tyneside was Pontop Pike but it had very poor coverage of Teesside while Whitby got its own mini transmitter which relays from Bilsdale.

Bilsdale was actually built for the BBC in 1969 when they introduced UHF colour TV with the main market being Teesside.

[roadtester]

To answer the original question, I think East is just too confusing as a destination. But East Anglia would work without confusion and ambiguity from large parts of the country.

That said, the fewer signs the better. It’s the best part of the country and we don’t want other people discovering it.

[Osthagen]

To answer the original question, I think East is just too confusing as a destination. But East Anglia would work without confusion and ambiguity from large parts of the country.

True, but as it stands, the only signs to use EAST ANGLIA as a regional destination is a sign or two on the M25 pointing to the A12. At which point there are multiple possible routes to East Anglia (= Norfolk and Suffolk), Norwich for example is better served by the M11.

EAST ANGLIA could be handy on the A1 South after Doncaster (which is presently signed just 'The SOUTH, Newark'), where a significant amount of traffic is likely to be heading there (for the ports, etc).
Then, once you get to a key turnoff like Newark for A17, you'd get the relevant destination(s) in East Anglia, much like the existing situation at Huntingdon where you already have the exit signed 'Harwich, Felixstowe, A14'.

[KeithW]

True, but as it stands, the only signs to use EAST ANGLIA as a regional destination is a sign or two on the M25 pointing to the A12. At which point there are multiple possible routes to East Anglia (= Norfolk and Suffolk), Norwich for example is better served by the M11.

EAST ANGLIA could be handy on the A1 South after Doncaster (which is presently signed just 'The SOUTH, Newark'), where a significant amount of traffic is likely to be heading there (for the ports, etc).
Then, once you get to a key turnoff like Newark for A17, you'd get the relevant destination(s) in East Anglia, much like the existing situation at Huntingdon where you already have the exit signed 'Harwich, Felixstowe, A14'.

Its a long way from Doncaster before you would turn of the A1/A1(M) for anywhere south of Lowestoft if you were in any sort of hurry, Brampton Hut in fact.

Now I have done the real east coast route.

Day 1
A19 to York
A1079 / A164
over the Humber Bridge
A15 to Sleaford

Day 2
A1121/A17 to Kings Lynn
A47 to Great Yarmouth
A12 to Woodbridge


Day 3
Local road to Sutton Hoo
Bawdsey Manor
St Osyth

But then this was a historical binge trip, RCS and road signs in general are for the unimaginative

[Chris5156]

To answer the original question, I think East is just too confusing as a destination.

I think this is what it boils down to. Great Britain is long and thin, so "north" and "south" are big and easy to grasp areas, while "east" and "west" can only ever be long thin bits down each side that are much less useful for navigation. You can go "east" and arrive in Newcastle or you can go "east" and arrive in Felixstowe - you couldn't reasonably use "The EAST" as a pointer towards both of them. So we don't use it.