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Also any promises made need to be kept, ( in spirit as well as legally) the original SE airport consultation talked about expanding Luton from 7 Million to 20 Million with the infrastructure to support this. In is expanding to 18 Million ( just short of the 20 Million ) and only minimal new off site infrastructure.
A decent East-West Link was included
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Johnny Mo
I don't think that this route is really on the cards - after all, M1 to Cambridge is practically complete already - just the Black Cat to Caxton Gibbet to contend with, in landscape that is far less controversial than Luton north or Hitchen south bypasses, which pass through some quite hilly rural landscape.
Also, the A505 from Baldock to Royston (excepting the Baldock Bypass) is of poor alignment and quality, while the section to the east is rural S2 operating at or above capacity. This eastern section would be straightforward to improve without issue, of course.
The A1(M) from Corey's Mill to Letchworth Gate forms part of this route, and that is also operating at capacity for much of the day.
Finally, Aylesbury isn't as significant to include in the plan as Milton Keynes. All of the above considered - the A421/428 corridor is the obvious choice.
c2R wrote:Finally, Aylesbury isn't as significant to include in the plan as Milton Keynes.
The two aren't mutually exclusive! Do you mean Luton vs MK? And, more relevant for the A505/A421 discussion is Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth/Baldock vs Bedford/St Neots.
All of the above considered - the A421/428 corridor is the obvious choice.
Between MK and Cambridge, yes. West of there, I'm not sure the A421 is in the best place at all.
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c2R wrote:
I don't think that this route is really on the cards - after all, M1 to Cambridge is practically complete already - just the Black Cat to Caxton Gibbet to contend with, in landscape that is far less controversial than Luton north or Hitchen south bypasses, which pass through some quite hilly rural landscape.
Also, the A505 from Baldock to Royston (excepting the Baldock Bypass) is of poor alignment and quality, while the section to the east is rural S2 operating at or above capacity. This eastern section would be straightforward to improve without issue, of course.
Agree with others about this route: the A505 west of Royston is probably fine for the traffic it gets now, but would be congested (and dangerous) if you added too much more traffic to it.
However, the eastern section has its own challenges: the part immediately west of the M11 can be a bottleneck (and this isn't even taking into account congestion caused by events at Duxford IWM) - ideally you'd build a half-mile bypass north of the housing. And if you're upgrading that, you need to do something about the roundabouts on the Royston bypass.
The A10 alternative would need work at the Foxton crossing, and to bypass Harston, as is generally known. I'm not sure how feasible the latter would be (has anyone here tried to plot a route?)
c2R wrote:
Also, the A505 from Baldock to Royston (excepting the Baldock Bypass) is of poor alignment and quality, while the section to the east is rural S2 operating at or above capacity. This eastern section would be straightforward to improve without issue, of course.
I'm not so sure about that. The eastern part of the A505 sees a LOT of traffic on a morning especially around Royston and Whittlesford and there's not a lot of space around Duxford to improve it given that the road passes between the accomodation section and workshops and the airfield. Then there are the busy junctions with the M11, A11 and A1301. The A1301 from Cambridge itself is probably the worst route out of the city and the A11 doesn't have that much spare capacity either. Given the upgrades to the A14 around Cambridge to Girton the A428/A421 seems a much better option
I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
In all fairness, it seems just another excuse to encourage development into areas along the corridor, such as Milton Keynes etc.
No doubt they'll be a big public outcry and the thing will never be built.
qwertyK wrote:I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
The Varsity Line was abandoned when the lines from Oxford to London and London to Cambridge were upgraded for fast trains, making this route considerably quicker than Oxford-Cambridge line.
I find the southern route via Aylesbury appealing, as it would tie in nicely to an Oxford Southern Bypass, which could then exploit a number of auxiliary routes from that direction. The A4074 and B480 are under-utilized compared with the A40, A34, A44 and their equally over-capacity junctions. As others have mentioned, it's also more direct and kills or injures many other birds with the same stone, the traffic problems in several towns along the route.
Last edited by Patrick Harper on Wed Aug 24, 2016 18:43, edited 1 time in total.
qwertyK wrote:I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
The report assumes completion of the EastWest rail route as well. Relatively straightforward to (re)establish the route from Oxford to Bedford as it is either already in use, has been in use recently, or mothballed. Bedford to Cambridge is much more problematic as too much of the original is no longer available.
The services on the old Varsity line were typical of British Railways in the 1950s - long irregular gaps between trains, and from memory when I looked up the timetable only one or so a day went all the way through between Oxford and Cambridge anyway (others required change at Bedford).
qwertyK wrote:I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
In all fairness, it seems just another excuse to encourage development into areas along the corridor, such as Milton Keynes etc.
No doubt they'll be a big public outcry and the thing will never be built.
jackal wrote:It also shows that a tiny proportion of commuting in the study area is by rail
Well of course it's tiny... if you don't have a railway then there probably aren't going to be many people travelling by rail.
OTOH, I live 15 miles from Oxford in a tiny town (population 3000) with a railway station that has 300,000 passenger journeys a year. Provide the station, and people use it.
Meanwhile, since the 1990s we've had the A14, the A43 dualling, and significant parts of the A421 upgraded. Yet there is still no east-west railway route south of the Leicester/Peterborough line. Oxford-Bletchley is happening painfully slowly, but there is no committed funding for Bedford-Cambridge, just an aspiration on the part of a few local authorities.
I write as someone who regularly travels from Oxfordshire to Milton Keynes for business, most recently driving the route this Tuesday. The A421 west of MK isn't brilliant, but it isn't terrible; there have been recent improvements (the Tingewick bypass, and rerouting to Brackley rather than Bicester); and at least it exists. Build the railway first before worrying about building a third east-west "expressway".
Richard_Fairhurst wrote:OTOH, I live 15 miles from Oxford in a tiny town (population 3000) with a railway station that has 300,000 passenger journeys a year. Provide the station, and people use it.
Charlbury?
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jackal wrote:It also shows that a tiny proportion of commuting in the study area is by rail
Well of course it's tiny... if you don't have a railway then there probably aren't going to be many people travelling by rail.
OTOH, I live 15 miles from Oxford in a tiny town (population 3000) with a railway station that has 300,000 passenger journeys a year. Provide the station, and people use it.
Meanwhile, since the 1990s we've had the A14, the A43 dualling, and significant parts of the A421 upgraded. Yet there is still no east-west railway route south of the Leicester/Peterborough line. Oxford-Bletchley is happening painfully slowly, but there is no committed funding for Bedford-Cambridge, just an aspiration on the part of a few local authorities.
I write as someone who regularly travels from Oxfordshire to Milton Keynes for business, most recently driving the route this Tuesday. The A421 west of MK isn't brilliant, but it isn't terrible; there have been recent improvements (the Tingewick bypass, and rerouting to Brackley rather than Bicester); and at least it exists. Build the railway first before worrying about building a third east-west "expressway".
It wouldn't be a 'third east-west "expressway"'. The A43 is not an expressway as it has many roundabouts, while the A14 and expressway A421 are in different corridors. To get between the M1 and M40 by expressway you have to go to the M25 (or M6/M42 in the other direction). It's a massive gap in the network that forces lots of traffic onto the M25 that doesn't want to go anywhere near London, and makes commutes between Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire a nightmare.
Nor is it an either/or thing, as you seem to be assuming. The expressway proposal is premised on EWR also going ahead.
Rail is certainly part of the solution but it can only realistically serve a minority of commuters - the lucky few who live AND work in city centres, towns and the rare village (like yours) that happens to have a station with a line to where they want to go. I live within 10 minutes walk of one of the busiest mainline stations in the UK, and frankly would cope fine if another road was never built. But most people do not have that luxury, and will not do under any plausible programme of rail upgrades. Over 90% of passenger journeys in the UK are by road, and even in London the number is around 80%. So unless you are planning to create a denser heavy and light rail network than London's in rural Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire, road improvements must be in the mix.
qwertyK wrote:
There already is a plan to restore the East West rail link IMHO both are needed. http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/
Keith
Not just a plan, well in to development and construction is to be integrated with HS2 from about 2018/19
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qwertyK wrote:I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
The Varsity Line was abandoned when the lines from Oxford to London and London to Cambridge were upgraded for fast trains, making this route considerably quicker than Oxford-Cambridge line.
qwertyK wrote:I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
The Varsity Line was abandoned when the lines from Oxford to London and London to Cambridge were upgraded for fast trains, making this route considerably quicker than Oxford-Cambridge line.
The radio astronomers might object, too.
The Radio Observatory is the least of the problems on the old alignment. That bit could be rerouted without too many problems.
Parts of The line from Bedford to Sandy have been built over
The section through Potton is now a housing estate although the station still survives
The station area at Gamlingay now houses a light industrial estate and there is also new housing there.
The line entered Cambridge at what is now the Trumpington Park and Ride
The section from there on is now part of the Guided Busway
Although Doctor Beeching gets the blame BR had been trying to close the line since nationalization and even though it was NOT one the lines listed for closure in Beeching's report they closed it anyway having first withdrawn most of the through trains. Of course the problem for Cambridge remains that the station is already struggling with the volume of traffic it handles without adding more.
Not just a plan, well in to development and construction is to be integrated with HS2 from about 2018/19
Though there is not yet a route for the Beford-Cambridge section.
There has been one route identified but its a major kludge. Essentially a line from south Bedford to Sandy then down the ECML to Hitchin and from there to Cambridge.
Jonathan B4027 wrote:
Not just a plan, well in to development and construction is to be integrated with HS2 from about 2018/19
Though there is not yet a route for the Beford-Cambridge section.
There has been one route identified but its a major kludge. Essentially a line from south Bedford to Sandy then down the ECML to Hitchin and from there to Cambridge.
So far it's only a corridor, not yet anything I would call a route.
qwertyK wrote:I personally think rail would be better. Yes it's nice to see a new road, but I think most people who would benefit from the two cities being linked (uni students) use trains rather than roads/motorways.
Are you joking? Students generally can't afford trains, most people I know used National Express or similar when they were students. National Express Oxford - Cambridge takes over 3 hours at the moment, a decent road link could get that down to 2, particularly if an express service was run a few times a day.
As many have said this has very little to do with linking Oxford and Cambridge, the premise of linking the UK's two oldest and most famous university towns is just a more acceptable face on what is an M25 relief project. From the southeast I can use the M4 and A404 or A34 to get to the M40, I have no real option to get to the M1 or A1 than the M25. I can use the A43 to get to the M1 from the M40 but experience has shown that's not a good option unless the M25 and M1 are very bad. The M40 is close to overloaded after junction 9 where the A34, at this point carrying more traffic than the M40, dumps over half it's load onto the M40. Things improve after the A43 but the A43 is mostly non GS D2 not designed for current traffic levels, neither Jun 9 or 10 is designed for current traffic levels either.
Linked in properly to the A34 (hopefully M34 in time) the Oxford - Cambridge link gives a route from the central South, particularly the Southampton/Portsmouth conurbation, a link all the way to the A14 at Cambridge without the M25. Other M25 bypasses would be nice, upgrading the A404 to Motorway and linking it to the M1 for example. Another is the old M31 project, but linking the university towns of Guildford and Reading doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
