"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

[ais523]

That's strange. Why isn't there a sign for no loading?? An oversight??

I always assumed a no-loading sign was a no-waiting sign rotated 90 degrees (with the two combined to mean no-stopping), but apparently that was just a completely incorrect guess?

I've definitely seen drivers ignore no-loading marks on kerbs before now. I'm not sure if there's that widespread an understanding among drivers about what they're for.

[exiled]

One thing that I do think is daft is the Welsh spelling 'rygbi'. The Italians and French have also adopted this English word, but see no need to deviate from the 'rugby' spelling.

Phonetics, IIRC 'rugby' would be pronounced 'reegba' according to the rules of Welsh. The phonetics of French leave the sounds similar making it more 'roogbi'.

[Stevie D]

I always assumed a no-loading sign was a no-waiting sign rotated 90 degrees (with the two combined to mean no-stopping), but apparently that was just a completely incorrect guess?

No, I'm afraid not. While it sounds like a good idea, when you take into account the inability of so many councils to get even easy signs right, the chances of them getting all the 'no waiting' and 'no loading' signs the right way round are pretty slim, and the chances of drivers recognising and remembering the difference are even slimmer!

[Gareth Thomas]

Now that the new section of A4232 is open, are the signs on that Welsh-first?

[Viator]

One thing that I do think is daft is the Welsh spelling 'rygbi'. The Italians and French have also adopted this English word, but see no need to deviate from the 'rugby' spelling.

Not daft at all. Languages with near-phonemic spelling systems (such as Welsh and Spanish) tend to respell nearly all foreign loanwords; those with more chaotic orthographies (e.g. English and French) usually take a more "what-the-hell, why bother?" approach and borrow the foreign spelling too. Thus, French "football", "scanner" v. Spanish "fútbol" "escáner".

P.S. Some languages even respell proper names (as well as adding gender markers), e.g. Latvian Terēza Meja and Donalds Tramps.

[Viator]

Now that the new section of A4232 is open, are the signs on that Welsh-first?

Ydyn. Yes.

[Owain]

One thing that I do think is daft is the Welsh spelling 'rygbi'. The Italians and French have also adopted this English word, but see no need to deviate from the 'rugby' spelling.

Not daft at all. Languages with near-phonemic spelling systems (such as Welsh and Spanish) tend to respell nearly all foreign loanwords; those with more chaotic orthographies (e.g. English and French) usually take a more "what-the-hell, why bother?" approach and borrow the foreign spelling too. Thus, French "football", "scanner" v. Spanish "fútbol" "escáner".

P.S. Some languages even respell proper names (as well as adding gender markers), e.g. Latvian Terēza Meja and Donalds Tramps.

My reasoning - as you probably guessed! - came from Italian, which has very strict rules of pronunciation like Welsh and German, but a relaxed attitude towards the adoption and spelling of foreign words. They're more likely to change the pronunciation than the spelling, which I guess is the opposite of what the Welsh do.

[Chris Bertram]

P.S. Some languages even respell proper names (as well as adding gender markers), e.g. Latvian Terēza Meja and Donalds Tramps.

Czech papers would routinely refer to the Iron Lady as "Thatcherova". But we never do the reverse and remove the gender marker, so the tennis player known to all as Martina remains Navrátilová, not Navrátil. It was a source of amusement to me a few years ago when Helena Suková and Cyril Suk were playing as a mixed doubles team, that the BBC commentary team had to explain to viewers that they were brother and sister "despite having different surnames". No, they had the same surname, but Helena had the feminine suffix.

[Chris Bertram]

They're more likely to change the pronunciation than the spelling, which I guess is the opposite of what the Welsh do.

Welsh can end up changing both. Take the word for hospital, which is ysbyty, an adaptation that is pronounced "uzbutty" to English ears.

[Owain]

Take the word for hospital, which is ysbyty, an adaptation that is pronounced "uzbutty" to English ears.

No - "uzbutty" is what a man from the Forest of Dean calls his wife!

My favourite Welsh word is Heddlu, because it looks almost Sardinian.

[Chris Bertram]

My favourite Welsh word is Heddlu, because it looks almost Sardinian.

And yet the Welsh word for a policeman is "plisman" (or "plismon").

[rhyds]

My favourite Welsh word is Heddlu, because it looks almost Sardinian.

And yet the Welsh word for a policeman is "plisman" (or "plismon").

The formal word is "Heddwas" or "Peace Servant", with "Heddlu" being "Peace Force"

[Chris Bertram]

My favourite Welsh word is Heddlu, because it looks almost Sardinian.

And yet the Welsh word for a policeman is "plisman" (or "plismon").

The formal word is "Heddwas" or "Peace Servant", with "Heddlu" being "Peace Force"

OK, but in everyday use on the streets of Dolgellau?

[Viator]

They're more likely to change the pronunciation than the spelling, which I guess is the opposite of what the Welsh do.

Welsh can end up changing both. Take the word for hospital, which is ysbyty, an adaptation that is pronounced "uzbutty" to English ears.

Ysbyty, though, comes not from English but direct from the Latin word hospitium.

PPS (pedantic post scriptum): ysbyty is pronounced [əsˈʹbəti] (there is no [z] sound in Welsh).

[exiled]

But that is something all languages do, the formal is something dropped to the extent people do forget what the formal is.

[rhyds]

And yet the Welsh word for a policeman is "plisman" (or "plismon").

The formal word is "Heddwas" or "Peace Servant", with "Heddlu" being "Peace Force"

OK, but in everyday use on the streets of Dolgellau?

I wouldn't know, because there hasn't been a heddwas or plismon spotted there for months!

[Viator]

Welsh has different initials for AM/PM.

It does, but their use in place of a.m./p.m. is, in my view, uncalled for as ante meridiem and post meridiem are Latin, not English. To make matters worse, Welsh has three "native" initialisms:

• yb : in the morning
  yp : in the afternoon
  yh : in the evening

the sensible situation would be the 24 hour clock. But this is the UK we are talking about...

I agree wholeheartedly!

[Chris Bertram]

Welsh has different initials for AM/PM.

It does, but their use in place of a.m./p.m. is, in my view, uncalled for as ante meridiem and post meridiem are Latin, not English. To make matters worse, Welsh has three "native" initialisms:

• yb : in the morning
  yp : in the afternoon
  yh : in the evening

the sensible situation would be the 24 hour clock. But this is the UK we are talking about...

I agree wholeheartedly!

Best to consider things like a.m., p.m., WC and so on to be symbols rather than abbreviations, as we do for m, km, l, ml, thus exempting them from any need for "translation".

[exiled]

Welsh has different initials for AM/PM.

It does, but their use in place of a.m./p.m. is, in my view, uncalled for as ante meridiem and post meridiem are Latin, not English. To make matters worse, Welsh has three "native" initialisms:

• yb : in the morning
  yp : in the afternoon
  yh : in the evening

the sensible situation would be the 24 hour clock. But this is the UK we are talking about...

I agree wholeheartedly!

Best to consider things like a.m., p.m., WC and so on to be symbols rather than abbreviations, as we do for m, km, l, ml, thus exempting them from any need for "translation".

But for half of that we would need to go metric, seeing as even in English we have no fixed abbreviation for yards, miles etc.

[Gareth Thomas]

Now that the new section of A4232 is open, are the signs on that Welsh-first?

Ydyn. Yes.

Any photos available? It must be odd for drivers to see "City centre" on top and then suddenly "Canol y ddinas" is there.