County signs in Ireland??

[wallmeerkat]

I think I'm right in saying that counties in Northern Ireland don't technically exist anymore, as they aren't used for any administrative purpose.

They exist in the same way that historic counties exist in GB. They're not the same thing (and never have been) as local government areas - for example, Derry wasn't administered by Londonderry County Council as it was a county borough.

In GB are counties not more fluid? I remember someone in university telling me about Cleveland being formed then abolished. The 6 counties of NI are fairly static, but any changes tends to be around council or constituency boundaries.

[Chris Bertram]

I think I'm right in saying that counties in Northern Ireland don't technically exist anymore, as they aren't used for any administrative purpose.

They exist in the same way that historic counties exist in GB. They're not the same thing (and never have been) as local government areas - for example, Derry wasn't administered by Londonderry County Council as it was a county borough.

In GB are counties not more fluid? I remember someone in university telling me about Cleveland being formed then abolished. The 6 counties of NI are fairly static, but any changes tends to be around council or constituency boundaries.

Steven will tell you that the historic counties do not change. This is of course because they no longer have any real function. What does change is the administrative counties, and even after the big changes of 1974, which created counties such as Avon, Cleveland, Humberside and the metropolitan counties of England, government has constantly fiddled with the structures of local government. This has included:

- Abolishing the metropolitan county councils (the counties still exist and have a Lord Lieutenant, plus some services remain county-based)
- Dissolving the counties of Berkshire, Cleveland, Avon and Humberside (though again some services remain county-based)
- Reinstating Herefordshire and Rutland as separate counties after they were unified with other counties in 1974 (Herefordshire with Worcestershire, Rutland with Leicestershire)
- Creating unitary authorities, sometimes out of parts of counties (e.g. Plymouth, Torbay, Swindon, Medway), sometimes out of whole counties (e.g. Buckinghamshire, North Yorkshire)
- And they haven't finished, with Northamptonshire and Cumbria having recently been split into largeish unitaries.

I fully expect further change in the future. Mapmakers must be tearing their hair out, as their maps become outdated almost as soon as published. And I haven't mentioned Wales and Scotland ...

[Berk]

Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are pretty straightforward. They’ve only been reorganised twice since then.

[Steven]

Yeah, as Chris says, GB is *complicated*, especially in England.

It also doesn't help that there's massive confusion about things, and that people don't understand legislation and how it works.

So talking just about England.

Firstly, there's the historic counties. They're the ones that haven't been touched since 1848 and are the best form of static geographic reference.

Then there's the administrative counties. They were first created in 1888 and have been changing ever since, with major changes happening in 1965, 1966 and 1974 in England. They didn't replace the historic counties, and the well-known 1974 changes replaced the earlier 1888 administrative counties, and not the historic ones. Ever since then, it's been about rolling back those 1974 changes, with the metropolitan areas being abolished in 1974, then various other large towns and cities becoming administrative counties in their own right, but usually without county councils. Unitary Authorities are a colloquialism for this type. The latest changes happened on 1 April this year, where Cumbria no longer exists; but Cumberland (which is different to the historic county); and Westmorland and Furness do.

And finally, there's "Counties for the Purposes of Lieutenancy", which are only used for defining areas of Lord Lieutenants, and so are combinations of administrative counties, including those where no actual administration happens.

Most people are confused, and most received wisdom about them is completely wrong. Shockingly (I know), Wikipedia lies.

There's a whole layer of extra confusion if you delve at all deeply - for example, the Greater London Authority isn't a county-level body, but a regional one; and there are four entirely different areas called "Derby" or "Derbyshire" - there's the historic "Derbyshire" or "County of Derby", there's the administrative "County of Derbyshire" (which has a county council) and "County of Derby" (which does not but is nothing to do with the last one); then there's the Derbyshire for the Purposes of Lieutenancy, which is a combination of the administrative counties of Derbyshire and Derby. Yep, it's officially horrible.

[IrlRon]

I've noticed from looking on the Wikipedia that in the south the traditional counties & provinces seemed to be getting more ceremonial as the demographics change.

We’re fairly clingy to the traditional counties, largely because of the GAA - it makes changing boundaries a very fraught process, and as such whipping up local opposition against any change isn’t hard, even though sports shouldn’t have anything to do with local government boundaries. (This has an impact in NI too, if a lesser one - no attempt will ever be made to describe the local authorities that exist now as “counties”).

County Dublin was divided in 1993 into three new counties, which are fully fledged counties as far as local government is concerned and have no different or distinct status, but you will be hard pressed to find any Dubliner who will ever identify with them - their county is Dublin, as far as they are concerned. Still (trying to bring roads back into the conversation) they do get fully fledged county boundary signs like any other. I do remember in 1993 Fingal County Council put up “Welcome to Co. Fingal” signs and not too long later patched out the “Co.” bit after local politicians didn’t recognise the authority of anyone other than the GAA to determine county boundaries!

[Chris Bertram]

I've noticed from looking on the Wikipedia that in the south the traditional counties & provinces seemed to be getting more ceremonial as the demographics change.

We’re fairly clingy to the traditional counties, largely because of the GAA - it makes changing boundaries a very fraught process, and as such whipping up local opposition against any change isn’t hard, even though sports shouldn’t have anything to do with local government boundaries. (This has an impact in NI too, if a lesser one - no attempt will ever be made to describe the local authorities that exist now as “counties”).

County Dublin was divided in 1993 into three new counties, which are fully fledged counties as far as local government is concerned and have no different or distinct status, but you will be hard pressed to find any Dubliner who will ever identify with them - their county is Dublin, as far as they are concerned. Still (trying to bring roads back into the conversation) they do get fully fledged county boundary signs like any other. I do remember in 1993 Fingal County Council put up “Welcome to Co. Fingal” signs and not too long later patched out the “Co.” bit after local politicians didn’t recognise the authority of anyone other than the GAA to determine county boundaries!

Ok, the equivalent in England and Wales would be to put it into the hands of the ECB (England and Wales Cricket Board, though for some reason Wales is forgotten in the abbreviation).

[explo]

I think I'm right in saying that counties in Northern Ireland don't technically exist anymore, as they aren't used for any administrative purpose.

That said, there are plenty of new-ish county boundary signs that have been put up along with recent road projects.

I've been around the country many times, but the one thing I've never seen is a sign for County Down. Has anyone else?

Counties exist but as an address location rather than an administrative boundary. Those are council areas that may be part of a county or a large town/city. In recent years they've been alagamated. So Co Down might be split between North Down and Ards council, Newry Mourne Down council (that also includes part of County Armagh), Lisburn and Castlereagh (part of which is Co Antrim) and Belfast City council.

So you'll not see a sign for Co Down but you'll see signs for the council areas:

Ards / North Down: https://www.google.com/maps/@54.529069, ... ?entry=ttu

Newry / Mourne / Down (with a tree that is seemingly purposely overhanging the gaelic name): https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4844595 ... ?entry=ttu

Lisburn and Castlereagh: https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4843871 ... ?entry=ttu

Which doesn't explain why I've seen a sign for every other county except for Down.

When the Toome bridge got built, new County signs went up beside it, and recently there's been a replacement Londonderry sign put up on the A26 just short of Coleraine.

Who is erecting these signs, and why?

[AndyB]

The answer is DfI, according to which division the bridge is in and whether there was a county sign present on the old road.

Pre-1973 signs were of course erected by the county councils.

Co Down is a fair question. The northern part is separated from Co Antrim by the city of Belfast (annoyingly deemed to be part of Co Antrim. Excuse me, I live on the Co Down side of the Lagan) and relatively few bridges over the Lagan between there and Lisburn. I don’t remember seeing signs for Co Armagh, either.

[EthanL13]

An example from Komi San

Pre-italic sign in Kerry-Cork border
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LnzWkho8xXJobp15A

[wallmeerkat]

I think I'm right in saying that counties in Northern Ireland don't technically exist anymore, as they aren't used for any administrative purpose.

That said, there are plenty of new-ish county boundary signs that have been put up along with recent road projects.

I've been around the country many times, but the one thing I've never seen is a sign for County Down. Has anyone else?

Counties exist but as an address location rather than an administrative boundary. Those are council areas that may be part of a county or a large town/city. In recent years they've been alagamated. So Co Down might be split between North Down and Ards council, Newry Mourne Down council (that also includes part of County Armagh), Lisburn and Castlereagh (part of which is Co Antrim) and Belfast City council.

So you'll not see a sign for Co Down but you'll see signs for the council areas:

Ards / North Down: https://www.google.com/maps/@54.529069, ... ?entry=ttu

Newry / Mourne / Down (with a tree that is seemingly purposely overhanging the gaelic name): https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4844595 ... ?entry=ttu

Lisburn and Castlereagh: https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4843871 ... ?entry=ttu

Which doesn't explain why I've seen a sign for every other county except for Down.

When the Toome bridge got built, new County signs went up beside it, and recently there's been a replacement Londonderry sign put up on the A26 just short of Coleraine.

Who is erecting these signs, and why?

Wow I've not really noticed it before - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.7598803 ... ?entry=ttu