Routes between major cities/towns in the pre-motorway era

[Jonny A46]

I've recently become very interested in thinking about the most important roads in the Great British road network in the pre-motorway era, and which routes were used for long distance strategic traffic between major towns/cities and other important destinations. I think this is partly because most important routes were less obvious before the M1, M6, M62 and the rest came along and established their place in the national consciousness and there was less political signposting of traffic to maximise usage of the main routes. Having said this, in a lot of cases the best routes between two places are fairly clear(London to Bristol would be via the A4, Birmingham to Norwich would be via the A47, Leeds to Hull would be via the A63, etc.) but in some other cases I've found it quite tricky to establish which were the best routes between two places. In particular, I'm not sure roads would have provided the best route between:

. Liverpool and Leeds?
(I can see four possibilities for this one: the A58; the A59 to Skipton then the A65/A660 into Leeds; A59 to Mellor Brook then A677, A679, A646 and A58 to Leeds via Blackburn, Burnley and Halifax; the A580 to Manchester then the A62 to Leeds. The A58 provided a direct route with a single number, but passed through a lot of large towns and wasn't trunk west of Halifax. The route via Blackburn and Burnley was trunk throughout, but shared the same problem of passing through numerous large towns en route with the A58. By contrast the A59/A65/A660 didn't pass through anywhere particularly big between Preston and Leeds, but took a rather northerly route to do so; the A580/A62 route. Which one of these would have been the best way?)

. Nottingham and Norwich?
(I mention this one in part because the A52 between Nottingham to Grantham was not trunked in either the 1936 or 1946 trunk road acts, but IIRC was trunked later. This means there is no obvious trunk road from Nottingham towards East Anglia, unless one took the A606/A46 to Leicester and then the A47 east of there, but this would seem an odd route. East of King's Lynn the route would be obvious, but west of there I'm struggling to establish the best way. The most direct route would appear to be via Grantham to the A17 west of Boston, but was considered the best route for this journey at the time?).

. Stoke on Trent and Sheffield?
(I'm not sure if this has ever been a particularly important traffic movement, but looking at the map the most direct route using only trunk routes I can see at this time would probably have been via either the A50/A516 to Derby then the A61 to Sheffield, largely staying out of the Peak District. Using non-trunk roads, I'm guessing the A53 might be used to Buxton but am less sure about beyond there).

. Birmingham and Aberystwyth?
(Would it have made more sense to go via a more northerly route (e.g. A4123/A41/A464/A5 to Shrewsbury and then reaching Aberystwyth via Welshpool and Newtown, or a more southerly route (e.g. A456 towards Leominster, then using the A49 and finally the A44 to reach the Welsh coast?)

Thanks for any help with this, I'd be really interested to know about the best routes between these places. By all accounts, I'd be interested to hear about any other unusual itineraries from (approximately) the 1946-1958 era.

[sydneynick]

The question of the "best" route attracted much argument in the 1950s. As it probably does today, because the UK has so many alternative ways of reaching a destination.

Back in the late 50s, we had to drive from North London to Fishguard for our summer holidays. My father chose to drive to Bicester on the A41, then along fairly minor roads by Stow-on-the-Wold, Tewkesbury, Hereford and Clyro (the main road went through Hay-on-Wye) until joining the A40 in an immense traffic jam at Brecon. It worked for us, but I can recall one of my father's friends saying he was mad not to stick to the A40.

[WHBM]

Liverpool to Leeds did commonly go via the A58 over the Pennines - actually did it in the 1960s pre-M62. A580 had been in place since the 1930s, which gave a good start, then A6044/6045 through Manchester northern suburbs and A58 beyond Rochdale.

Depended exactly where you were going, there are a large number of closely parallel roads across the Pennines between Manchester and West Yorkshire, and the outskirts stretch surprisingly close to one another. The winter road closure signs were right in urban streets on each side.

[Chris Bertram]

. Birmingham and Aberystwyth?
(Would it have made more sense to go via a more northerly route (e.g. A4123/A41/A464/A5 to Shrewsbury and then reaching Aberystwyth via Welshpool and Newtown, or a more southerly route (e.g. A456 towards Leominster, then using the A49 and finally the A44 to reach the Welsh coast?

An interesting question. I think the route via Shrewsbury would probably always have been better, getting you to the Welsh mountains more quickly than A456/A49/A44. It's then much of a muchness whether you're approaching Aber from Welshpool or via A44 from Kington.

These days I would say there's no competition, with M6 and M54 whipping you past Telford (elephant races permitting) and the A5 greatly improved to the other side of Shrewsbury. By way of contrast, A456 has had fewer, shorter improvements (Quinton by-pass, Bewdley by-pass) and A44 fewer still. It still goes through Leominster, for one thing.

[Bryn666]

Liverpool to Leeds was pretty rubbish pre-M62 regardless of which way you went.

The A59/A65/A660 route was still mostly unimproved in the 60s and involved passing through places like Clitheroe and Skipton, which were both fearsome bottlenecks in their day. Interestingly "Leeds 54" appears on an RCS at Mellor Brook these days, which is odd as the first ADS for Leeds is at Skipton.

The A677/A6119/A679/A646/A58 route will also have taken forever. It still takes forever today. I think of the entire corridor between Five Barred Gate (A59/A677 junction) and Leeds had less than 15 miles of NSL road, the longest sections being the A677 from Five Barred Gate along the A6119 to Whitebirk, and then the A646 south of Burnley to Todmorden. The rest even in the 1960s will have been a mixture of 30 and 40 limit with extremely short NSL between.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

. Birmingham and Aberystwyth?
(Would it have made more sense to go via a more northerly route (e.g. A4123/A41/A464/A5 to Shrewsbury and then reaching Aberystwyth via Welshpool and Newtown, or a more southerly route (e.g. A456 towards Leominster, then using the A49 and finally the A44 to reach the Welsh coast?

An interesting question. I think the route via Shrewsbury would probably always have been better, getting you to the Welsh mountains more quickly than A456/A49/A44. It's then much of a muchness whether you're approaching Aber from Welshpool or via A44 from Kington.

These days I would say there's no competition, with M6 and M54 whipping you past Telford (elephant races permitting) and the A5 greatly improved to the other side of Shrewsbury. By way of contrast, A456 has had fewer, shorter improvements (Quinton by-pass, Bewdley by-pass) and A44 fewer still. It still goes through Leominster, for one thing.

I wonder whether any drivers may have followed the "middle" route i.e. the A456 through Kidderminster to Woofferton, the A49 to Craven Arms, the A489 through Newtown to Caersws, the A492 (now A470) to Llangurig, then the A44. I can remember being in very slow traffic on the A5 through Oakengates and Wellington and on the Shrewsbury bypass approaching the A49 junction at Meole Brace. Welshpool was also a hotspot for slow traffic.

[Peter350]

I have been wondering which was the best route to take between London and Dover before the final section of M20 was finished. I’m sure it would have changed several times since each section of motorway bypass was complete, but my guess is that in the 1950s, the A2 would have been the better route, since it would have been more direct than the A20 with its straight alignment. Is this correct?

[David D Miller]

Search for AA maps of "through routes to and from". They were published periodically for many major cities around the country in the days before Autoroute Express. EBay is currently showing examples for Leeds, Cambridge, Norwich, Southampton and Sheffield.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Chris Bertram]

Search for AA maps of "through routes to and from". They were published periodically for many major cities around the country in the days before Autoroute Express. EBay is currently showing examples for Leeds, Cambridge, Norwich, Southampton and Sheffield.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Welcome to SABRE. Fan of Yes, by any chance?

[David D Miller]

Search for AA maps of "through routes to and from". They were published periodically for many major cities around the country in the days before Autoroute Express. EBay is currently showing examples for Leeds, Cambridge, Norwich, Southampton and Sheffield.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Welcome to SABRE. Fan of Yes, by any chance?

Need to sort out my Tapatalk login details!
- David D Miller

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[wrinkly]

Search for AA maps of "through routes to and from". They were published periodically for many major cities around the country in the days before Autoroute Express. EBay is currently showing examples for Leeds, Cambridge, Norwich, Southampton and Sheffield.

Also showing a lot of recommended routes are the AA Road Books (one for England & Wales, one for Scotland). I have the 1950 E&W book somewhere. In addition to the Itineraries, there are a few pages showing recommended routes from London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle and Carlisle.

See also this recent thread and this older one.

[RichardA626]

Liverpool to Leeds was pretty rubbish pre-M62 regardless of which way you went.

The A59/A65/A660 route was still mostly unimproved in the 60s and involved passing through places like Clitheroe and Skipton, which were both fearsome bottlenecks in their day. Interestingly "Leeds 54" appears on an RCS at Mellor Brook these days, which is odd as the first ADS for Leeds is at Skipton.

The A677/A6119/A679/A646/A58 route will also have taken forever. It still takes forever today. I think of the entire corridor between Five Barred Gate (A59/A677 junction) and Leeds had less than 15 miles of NSL road, the longest sections being the A677 from Five Barred Gate along the A6119 to Whitebirk, and then the A646 south of Burnley to Todmorden. The rest even in the 1960s will have been a mixture of 30 and 40 limit with extremely short NSL between.

I've heard East - West driving was hard in the North of England pre-motorways. Supposedly the Rolling Stones had trouble touring between Kings Lynn & the North West

[vlad]

Stoke on Trent and Sheffield?
(I'm not sure if this has ever been a particularly important traffic movement, but looking at the map the most direct route using only trunk routes I can see at this time would probably have been via either the A50/A516 to Derby then the A61 to Sheffield, largely staying out of the Peak District. Using non-trunk roads, I'm guessing the A53 might be used to Buxton but am less sure about beyond there).

Travelling between Stoke and Sheffield has always been pretty difficult, although as you say it's not a movement too many people want to do.

The direct route is the obvious route. Leave Stoke along the A53 then turn right at Royal Cottage onto the unclassified road via Longnor and join the B5055 to Bakewell, then follow the A619 and A621 into Sheffield.

Depending on exactly where you want to end up construction of the A50 and M1 have improved things a bit but depending on traffic it can still be just as quick to take the old route.

[wrinkly]

I've heard East - West driving was hard in the North of England pre-motorways. Supposedly the Rolling Stones had trouble touring between Kings Lynn & the North West

The roads (which are still there to be seen) often tend to run through 19th century ribbon development in narrow valley bottoms.

[ForestChav]

. Nottingham and Norwich?
(I mention this one in part because the A52 between Nottingham to Grantham was not trunked in either the 1936 or 1946 trunk road acts, but IIRC was trunked later. This means there is no obvious trunk road from Nottingham towards East Anglia, unless one took the A606/A46 to Leicester and then the A47 east of there, but this would seem an odd route. East of King's Lynn the route would be obvious, but west of there I'm struggling to establish the best way. The most direct route would appear to be via Grantham to the A17 west of Boston, but was considered the best route for this journey at the time?).

Probably the same as the way you'd go now, pick up the A52 somewhere (Gamston from the middle, I'd pick it up at Bingham) then modern A52, A17 and A47.

Of course, I don't think the A52 East of Grantham (which was initially the A152 as far as Donnington, certainly didn't reach as far as the coast like it does now) was ever trunk, nor is it now (I think this stops at the A1) and though the A17 was, may not be (Probably is). But there isn't anything saying this had to be done on trunk roads.

To pick up the A47, you could use the A606 then A6003 from Oakham, just avoiding the toffs, or (as I've done a few times) pick up the A47 from the A1, which is a fair trek out of the way compared to the A17, and provided you don't get stuck behind a tractor or something, not a great deal faster even though most of it is now dualled. Google Maps suggests 2:45 via A17 and 2:50 via A1 and A47, so not a lot in it now. (The A47 has a fair amount of modern dualling before Kings Lynn, but the A17 is also improved and originally went through all the villages it now bypasses, so not exactly an unfair test)

[Owain]

Liverpool to Leeds was pretty rubbish pre-M62 regardless of which way you went.

The A59/A65/A660 route was still mostly unimproved in the 60s and involved passing through places like Clitheroe and Skipton, which were both fearsome bottlenecks in their day. Interestingly "Leeds 54" appears on an RCS at Mellor Brook these days, which is odd as the first ADS for Leeds is at Skipton.

The A677/A6119/A679/A646/A58 route will also have taken forever. It still takes forever today. I think of the entire corridor between Five Barred Gate (A59/A677 junction) and Leeds had less than 15 miles of NSL road, the longest sections being the A677 from Five Barred Gate along the A6119 to Whitebirk, and then the A646 south of Burnley to Todmorden. The rest even in the 1960s will have been a mixture of 30 and 40 limit with extremely short NSL between.

The day I drove the A58 from Liverpool to Leeds, it took about six hours. Doing it on the motorway usually takes about three at peak times; half that if it's clear.

[Was92now625]

Stoke on Trent and Sheffield?
(I'm not sure if this has ever been a particularly important traffic movement, but looking at the map the most direct route using only trunk routes I can see at this time would probably have been via either the A50/A516 to Derby then the A61 to Sheffield, largely staying out of the Peak District. Using non-trunk roads, I'm guessing the A53 might be used to Buxton but am less sure about beyond there).

Travelling between Stoke and Sheffield has always been pretty difficult, although as you say it's not a movement too many people want to do.

The direct route is the obvious route. Leave Stoke along the A53 then turn right at Royal Cottage onto the unclassified road via Longnor and join the B5055 to Bakewell, then follow the A619 and A621 into Sheffield.

Depending on exactly where you want to end up construction of the A50 and M1 have improved things a bit but depending on traffic it can still be just as quick to take the old route.

Yes, I've done this one a few times. Let's just say every time I do this across the Peak District, I wish I had gone by Derby for the faster roads. Every time I go by A50, Derby and A38/M1, I wish I had gone across the Peak district.

Having said that, I enjoy driving generally in the Peak District.

[Norfolktolancashire]

I have been wondering what the main route pre motorway was from the North-West to Devon/Cornwall.

The A38 southwest from Worcester makes sense, but what about the main roads either through or to the west of the Midlands conurbation?

[Steven]

I have been wondering what the main route pre motorway was from the North-West to Devon/Cornwall.

The A38 southwest from Worcester makes sense, but what about the main roads either through or to the west of the Midlands conurbation?

A449 then A34 was the busiest route.

[Glenn A]

Travelling from west Cumberland to the South was an absolute bind before the M6 was completed in 1971. You had the tediously slow A66( or A597/ A595/ A594 until 1968) to get to Penrith, although this remained largely awful until it was rebuilt in the mid seventies. Then to get South in winter, you had the choice of the notorious A6 over Shap, or the equally dangerous and snowbound A66 to Scotch Corner to meet the A1, which was the preferred route if you were going to London.