Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

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Conekicker
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Conekicker »

tom66 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 14:04 Four-way give-way just outside of Leatherhead:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.27929 ... 384!8i8192

I really had to double-take when I saw this, so in one sense, it's effective at slowing traffic by just confusing everyone as to who has priority. (But surely a mini roundabout would have the same effect. And they've nearly got that with that brick island there.)
This is one of the problems with official documentation like the Traffic Signs Manual - it advises designers what to do.

It very pointedly does NOT tell them what NOT to do, hence silly stuff like this.

I think there's a definite need for a "What not to do" guidance alongside the "What to do" stuff that exists, given how so many people get it wrong to a greater or lesser extent.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 15:58 Nope, that's a mini-roundabout with standard markings. A Stop line is a solid line, remember, whether at traffic lights or at a priority junction.
I'm not that dumb.
Perhaps I sent the wrong link? There should be a T-junction in the centre, with a yellow box, and STOP lines and writings on all 3 approaches.
In case our satellite shots differ for some reason, here is what I see at that location. https://imgur.com/a/4QxeOZx
jnty
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by jnty »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 06:11
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 15:58 Nope, that's a mini-roundabout with standard markings. A Stop line is a solid line, remember, whether at traffic lights or at a priority junction.
I'm not that dumb.
Perhaps I sent the wrong link? There should be a T-junction in the centre, with a yellow box, and STOP lines and writings on all 3 approaches.
In case our satellite shots differ for some reason, here is what I see at that location. https://imgur.com/a/4QxeOZx
I definitely saw the right thing that you're describing/pictured. Not sure what Chris saw as there's no roundabouts in the vicinity that I could find.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Chris5156 »

jnty wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 09:48
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 06:11
Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 15:58 Nope, that's a mini-roundabout with standard markings. A Stop line is a solid line, remember, whether at traffic lights or at a priority junction.
I'm not that dumb.
Perhaps I sent the wrong link? There should be a T-junction in the centre, with a yellow box, and STOP lines and writings on all 3 approaches.
In case our satellite shots differ for some reason, here is what I see at that location. https://imgur.com/a/4QxeOZx
I definitely saw the right thing that you're describing/pictured. Not sure what Chris saw as there's no roundabouts in the vicinity that I could find.
I saw a mini roundabout. Are we looking at different versions of Google aerial photography?
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by FosseWay »

tom66 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 14:04 Four-way give-way just outside of Leatherhead:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.27929 ... 384!8i8192

I really had to double-take when I saw this, so in one sense, it's effective at slowing traffic by just confusing everyone as to who has priority.
Whoever laid it out has clearly been reading the Swedish instructions for traffic management, because here the bold bit is not a bug but an explicit, intentional feature of many environments.

Most obviously, and not limited to Sweden, is priorité à droite, which rather than assigning priority to a given stretch of tarmac, makes priority relative/conditional on the direction of travel of any given road user, meaning that at any given junction you can have priority over one other user while needing to give way to another, at precisely the same time.

Sweden takes that further, especially with cycle crossings of motor roads. Some give the cycle path explicit priority, while others don't (and the difference in markings is very subtle, such that few cyclists or drivers reliably know the difference). On the ones that don't, the relevant legislation says that cyclists must give way to motor vehicles and that motor vehicles should "give cyclists the opportunity" to cross. "Vague" doesn't even begin to describe it. In practice, virtually everyone, drivers and cyclists, treats these as cycle priority, except for a minority of drivers who don't pay attention to anyone's priority anywhere. But I've always thought it's unnecessary to introduce this kind of uncertainty, especially in a situation which can't really be described as "low speed". The cars may well be limited to 30 or 40 km/h in most cases, but for the cyclists these crossings are usually on through routes. It's a completely different dynamic from the situation in housing estates etc. where generally everyone's speed is much lower.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by jnty »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:06
jnty wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 09:48
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 06:11
I'm not that dumb.
Perhaps I sent the wrong link? There should be a T-junction in the centre, with a yellow box, and STOP lines and writings on all 3 approaches.
In case our satellite shots differ for some reason, here is what I see at that location. https://imgur.com/a/4QxeOZx
I definitely saw the right thing that you're describing/pictured. Not sure what Chris saw as there's no roundabouts in the vicinity that I could find.
I saw a mini roundabout. Are we looking at different versions of Google aerial photography?
That's really weird - it must be showing different versions to different people! Presumably it was converted from/to a mini roundabout at some point.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by FosseWay »

jnty wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:25
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:06
jnty wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 09:48

I definitely saw the right thing that you're describing/pictured. Not sure what Chris saw as there's no roundabouts in the vicinity that I could find.
I saw a mini roundabout. Are we looking at different versions of Google aerial photography?
That's really weird - it must be showing different versions to different people! Presumably it was converted from/to a mini roundabout at some point.
I see this, which is I presume what Chris saw:
roundabout.png
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by jnty »

Bizarrely if I alter the '.com' in the url to '.ie' I get the mini-roundabout: https://www.google.ie/maps/@50.8835788, ... a=!3m1!1e3

but not for .com or .co.uk
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Big L »

FosseWay wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:39 I see this, which is I presume what Chris saw:
roundabout.png
That’s pretty much what I get once Google has stopped trying to block my view with invites to download their app.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by FosseWay »

jnty wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:50 Bizarrely if I alter the '.com' in the url to '.ie' I get the mini-roundabout: https://www.google.ie/maps/@50.8835788, ... a=!3m1!1e3

but not for .com or .co.uk
I get the mini-roundabout regardless of which Google address I use. The original link was to .com, and I've tried .se, .co.uk and (given WhiteBlueRed's probable location) .ru and they all show the mini-roundabout.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Glen »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:06 I saw a mini roundabout. Are we looking at different versions of Google aerial photography?
Yes, if you're on the desktop browser version of Maps or the Earth mobile app it will default to the 3D images. Whereas on the Maps mobile app (or desktop browser without webGL enabled) you'll get a flat image, which might be a different age to the 3D version.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by wallmeerkat »

Skipsy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 17:05 This small junction in Kensington is weird. The road in front on the street view is one way.
Similarly this in Killyleagh, Co Down - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.3985906 ... 384!8i8192

Not quite a 3 way, but similar to that Kensington junction, though the road to the right becomes two way. Who exactly are we giving way for here?

Should've been designed either the one way road from left to right has priority, or the road at the junction where the one way section of street is treated as a junction-on-bend.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by Big L »

wallmeerkat wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 13:09
Skipsy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 17:05 This small junction in Kensington is weird. The road in front on the street view is one way.
Similarly this in Killyleagh, Co Down - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.3985906 ... 384!8i8192

Not quite a 3 way, but similar to that Kensington junction, though the road to the right becomes two way. Who exactly are we giving way for here?

Should've been designed either the one way road from left to right has priority, or the road at the junction where the one way section of street is treated as a junction-on-bend.
Re the text I’ve highlighted red.
In both links, traffic from the left. Yes, they also have a give way line. I guess someone decided neither flow should have priority.
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Re: Three way Give Way at Heathers Gill

Post by MotorwayGuy »

Big L wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 13:48
wallmeerkat wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 13:09
Skipsy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 17:05 This small junction in Kensington is weird. The road in front on the street view is one way.
Similarly this in Killyleagh, Co Down - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.3985906 ... 384!8i8192

Not quite a 3 way, but similar to that Kensington junction, though the road to the right becomes two way. Who exactly are we giving way for here?

Should've been designed either the one way road from left to right has priority, or the road at the junction where the one way section of street is treated as a junction-on-bend.
Re the text I’ve highlighted red.
In both links, traffic from the left. Yes, they also have a give way line. I guess someone decided neither flow should have priority.
This one was always marked as a bend but for a short while had give way lines on both which I'm going to assume was done in error, like this one-way street nearby being marked as two way after resurfacing. Whatever team has been responsible for markings in the area over the past 10 years needs retraining.
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