Longest wait at traffic lights?

[Truvelo]

This wait at temporary lights in Mirfield was at least three minutes. I don't know how long I was already waiting before the video started.

[Alderpoint]

.. there have been several occasions when I’ve been waiting at temporary lights that have ‘stuck’ on red at both ends. The question when this happens is what to do? Presumably it's never legal to drive through on red no matter how long the wait. The reality is that after a few minutes waiting, the urge to get moving wins!

What is the legality of temporary lights? So many of them seem to be set up in "dubious" ways that I can't see that they are legally enforcable. Certainly on a quiet lane near here, they had "temporary" lights for weeks but you could always see the whole length of the works (about 100yds). After a few days it was clear that many drivers were treating the lights as advisory. Clearly if there had been an incident, that would have gone against them, but legally?

[Ruperts Trooper]

.. there have been several occasions when I’ve been waiting at temporary lights that have ‘stuck’ on red at both ends. The question when this happens is what to do? Presumably it's never legal to drive through on red no matter how long the wait. The reality is that after a few minutes waiting, the urge to get moving wins!

What is the legality of temporary lights? So many of them seem to be set up in "dubious" ways that I can't see that they are legally enforcable. Certainly on a quiet lane near here, they had "temporary" lights for weeks but you could always see the whole length of the works (about 100yds). After a few days it was clear that many drivers were treating the lights as advisory. Clearly if there had been an incident, that would have gone against them, but legally?

I understand they used to be unenforceable but I believe that changed in one of the Road Traffic Acts to make them enforceable.

[AndyB]

As far as I am aware, they carry the same status as permanent traffic lights as the meaning of the lights is identical as per TSRGD, and traffic lights don’t need a TRO to be legally enforceable.

In practice, if any traffic signal gets stuck on red, I think police expect you to proceed with caution when safe, and more to the point tell them so they can report it to the highways people.

[Chris Bertram]

Ok, i've not come across a specific thread for this so excuse me if one already exists.

I nominate the swing bridge over the Manchester ship canal to Wigg island, Runcorn. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3443632 ... 312!8i6656
The lights aren't for the swinging of the bridge but to control the traffic over it as it's only wide enough for single file only. You can wait here up to 2/3 minutes and not even see a vehicle come the other way ! And the sign is pretty accurate.

And what model of traffic lights are those? They're mounted on the post top, rather than being fixed to any kind of bracket. I suspect they're rather old.

[jervi]

.. there have been several occasions when I’ve been waiting at temporary lights that have ‘stuck’ on red at both ends. The question when this happens is what to do? Presumably it's never legal to drive through on red no matter how long the wait. The reality is that after a few minutes waiting, the urge to get moving wins!

What is the legality of temporary lights? So many of them seem to be set up in "dubious" ways that I can't see that they are legally enforcable. Certainly on a quiet lane near here, they had "temporary" lights for weeks but you could always see the whole length of the works (about 100yds). After a few days it was clear that many drivers were treating the lights as advisory. Clearly if there had been an incident, that would have gone against them, but legally?

The offence of contravening a red light signal is contained in s. 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 specifies which signs come within the ambit of s. 36. One of these signs is "(g)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35".
Reg 33 provides for fixed traffic lights. Reg 35 provides for "Portable light signals for the control of vehicular traffic". So as long as they comply with the requirements of Reg 35 they are enforceable under s. 36. Penalty is a fine and obligatory endorsement/optional disqualification.
and...
The 1994 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions gave portable temporary lights at road works and temporary road traffic control schemes equal validity with permanent lights and signs.

So when I passed through some temporary lights the other day the "If light is RED wait here" (or whatever it actually says) sign was flat on the ground, you couldn't see it. So if I went through I red light then I could of argued the case that the lights/signs did not comply with the requirements and may get away with it.

[brummie_rob]

Here!

The wait some evenings can feel like forever!

It is most peculiar because the other part of the junction Here! is almost an instant change..

I have reported the issue.. it looks like there is some form of sensor in the road, which may not be working ?

I believe the loops were never replaced when the works to the bridge took place last year.

[PhilC]

Indefinitely!

I don’t know if it’s because I’ve been unlucky but there have been several occasions when I’ve been waiting at temporary lights that have ‘stuck’ on red at both ends. The question when this happens is what to do? Presumably it's never legal to drive through on red no matter how long the wait. The reality is that after a few minutes waiting, the urge to get moving wins!

Ian (M5 Driver)

As far as I am aware only a police officer can override traffic signals, even if they are jammed on red. Many years ago I remember some roadworks in the centre of Birmingham controlled by temporary traffic lights which never seemed to be working properly. The length of the roadworks was little more than 20 yards and the road was plenty wide enough for two cars to squeeze through at the same time. Not unnaturally, many drivers ignored the lights. About once a week a policeman would stand just down the road stopping everyone who had just driven through the red light.

[AndyB]

So when I passed through some temporary lights the other day the "If light is RED wait here" (or whatever it actually says) sign was flat on the ground, you couldn't see it. So if I went through I red light then I could of argued the case that the lights/signs did not comply with the requirements and may get away with it.

TSRGD2016 Schedule 14 para 30 says that if there is no stop line or it is no longer visible, the "When red light shows wait here" sign should be observed as the stop line, or, failing that, the primary signal itself.

The Schedule notes which signs are in and of themselves subject to Section 36 of the RTA, in this case part 4, paragraph 1.

[traffic-light-man]

Ok, i've not come across a specific thread for this so excuse me if one already exists.

I nominate the swing bridge over the Manchester ship canal to Wigg island, Runcorn. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3443632 ... 312!8i6656
The lights aren't for the swinging of the bridge but to control the traffic over it as it's only wide enough for single file only. You can wait here up to 2/3 minutes and not even see a vehicle come the other way ! And the sign is pretty accurate.

And what model of traffic lights are those? They're mounted on the post top, rather than being fixed to any kind of bracket. I suspect they're rather old.

They're Forest City heads, which were a non-public road variety (though, I do believe they were used as temporary heads). I believe the design hasn't changed much over the years, and indeed I'm led to believe Mallatite (the purchaser of Signature, which in turn was the purchaser of Forest City) are still using those heads with LED modules. This does make them quite difficult to date.

These ones had what looked to be glass lenses though, so they must be of some vintage! The last one (I think) that remained with some of the glass lenses intact was replaced with an LED euro-style head fairly recently.

[Rambo]

Ok, i've not come across a specific thread for this so excuse me if one already exists.

I nominate the swing bridge over the Manchester ship canal to Wigg island, Runcorn. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3443632 ... 312!8i6656
The lights aren't for the swinging of the bridge but to control the traffic over it as it's only wide enough for single file only. You can wait here up to 2/3 minutes and not even see a vehicle come the other way ! And the sign is pretty accurate.

And what model of traffic lights are those? They're mounted on the post top, rather than being fixed to any kind of bracket. I suspect they're rather old.

They're Forest City heads, which were a non-public road variety (though, I do believe they were used as temporary heads). I believe the design hasn't changed much over the years, and indeed I'm led to believe Mallatite (the purchaser of Signature, which in turn was the purchaser of Forest City) are still using those heads with LED modules. This does make them quite difficult to date.

These ones had what looked to be glass lenses though, so they must be of some vintage! The last one (I think) that remained with some of the glass lenses intact was replaced with an LED euro-style head fairly recently.

I suspected they were quite old. But i have no idea about forest city heads. Apart from google which states they started life a long time ago! My guess is they've been there since at leaste the 1960's. I believe they are also on a 3 minute delay just to confirm the waiting time.

[Skipsy]

A little revival, but has anyone experienced the wait at the bottom of the slip road exiting the A3 southbound for the A320/A25? Doesn't matter if going left or right.
The end of the slip road is a T-junction situated right next to a busy crossroads, meaning it sort of acts as a five-way junction.
The wait time is so long because you get the green for a short window of time while your 'arm' of that major crossroads goes green, and then traffic going southbound on the A320 then proceed after.
Of course every direction at this junction has a long wait, but because of the short green light for the slip road, that obviously means you have the longest potential wait out of all.
I've never timed it but it has to be near 3 minutes long, maybe the longest wait for exiting a motorway/primary route?

[multiraider2]

Indefinitely!

I don’t know if it’s because I’ve been unlucky but there have been several occasions when I’ve been waiting at temporary lights that have ‘stuck’ on red at both ends. The question when this happens is what to do? Presumably it's never legal to drive through on red no matter how long the wait. The reality is that after a few minutes waiting, the urge to get moving wins!

Ian (M5 Driver)

Much discussed in this thread viewtopic.php?t=44178

Turning back to the original question. The City of London has the lights at Monument. A complicated junction always because of the five routes and it being combined with another signal at the immedate head of London Bridge. The red for traffic coming along Eastcheap here has always been a long one, going back to when I first looked at it in 1983. I timed it once at over 2 minutes. The green is less than 15 seconds and only allows about 4 to 5 vehicles out and this hindered because a green was always combined with a red at the next linked lights for traffic to go to Cannnon Street. It previously being a focal point for traffic in Central London, traffic always built up back towards the Tower of London but more recent TFL restrictions on traffic to Bank, along the A10 Bishopsgate and the A3 London Bridge have certainly reduced traffic in the City overall. Nevertheless there are still often long queues here because of the very limited green and TFL hatched the inner lane under Covid protocols.

[wallmeerkat]

I've seen myself waiting at these lights at Todds Hill, Saintfield, for about 10 minutes, despite it being a rural town. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.46059 ... 8192?hl=en The lights are timed such that the mainline (the roads left/right here) gets highest priority so it gets a long green, then the road from the right gets an extra green to allow right turning into the main street of the town. Then traffic from the main street that is mostly heading left/right onto the main road gets a long green. Then Todds Hill lets a couple of cars out then red again. Plus somewhere in the mix is a pedestrian sequence. I tend to use rural backroads to avoid this traffic light, but in winter I would stick to the gritted roads.

[dannylonglegs]

Not sure what site it was in the end but I remember TfL agonised for a while before settling on a 180s cycle time somewhere on the A4 when there were the works a few months back. As a general rule signals in London aren't allowed to run above 120s because peds start taking risks if they have to wait too long. I can imagine the CT at a bad temps site (ie most of them) with multiple busy stages would easily hit 3+ min. You could of course be waiting indefinitely for any demand dependent stage if the detection to call it isn't working properly, bus drivers tend to wait about 5 minutes before going anyway.

In terms of actual operational CTs, the northern entrance to the Blackwall Tunnel runs 120s across 2 stages and I imagine that's only because it's inefficient to run it higher than this. This site by the M25 seems to run a fixed 144s CT at all times of day which is very chunky indeed.

[the cheesecake man]

I'll nominate the time I sat here for 5 minutes because the **** at the front of the queue had stopped before the detector.

[L.J.D]

These ones in Flockton have signs warning of long wait times.

[Jonathan24]

I've seen myself waiting at these lights at Todds Hill, Saintfield, for about 10 minutes, despite it being a rural town. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.46059 ... 8192?hl=en The lights are timed such that the mainline (the roads left/right here) gets highest priority so it gets a long green, then the road from the right gets an extra green to allow right turning into the main street of the town. Then traffic from the main street that is mostly heading left/right onto the main road gets a long green. Then Todds Hill lets a couple of cars out then red again. Plus somewhere in the mix is a pedestrian sequence. I tend to use rural backroads to avoid this traffic light, but in winter I would stick to the gritted roads.

I assume your 10 minute wait is because the traffic lights only let a few cars through at a time, rather than they remain on red for 10 minutes? When I've travelled through there on the main line, the lights don't seem to remain on green for that long, leading to long queues of cars trying to get through Saintfield.

I think the longest I've ever had to wait at a red light is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6428433 ... 384!8i8192

These lights only change on every 2nd cycle i.e. mainline has a long green, then the oncoming road has green, then mainline has a long green again, ongoing road has green and finally the exiting road gets green. Have never measured it but it has felt like I've sat there for 4-5 minutes before.

[FosseWay]

Leaving aside equipment failure, the main issue for me is not so much total wait time as time spent waiting at red when no-one is benefiting.

Complex intersections or long single-track sections past roadworks are necessarily going to involve long red periods for any given direction. If we must insist on there being 8 billion of us and on living in large conurbations, that's just life

What gets my biscuit, and also takes the goat, is multiple sets of lights for fairly insignificant junctions, where the chances are high that you wait through an entire cycle without anyone making use of the fact that you've stopped. In other words, strict liability aside, you could have carried right on and neither endangered nor inconvenienced anyone. Moreover, where there are a lot of minor junctions like this, they also affect the utility of lights at major junctions. You end up stopping one direction of traffic for nothing, and then as soon as traffic appears from the direction that has green, the lights change to red. And people wonder why some road users "ignore" red lights - I don't think they do, actually, in most cases; they simply treat them as give ways in the knowledge that the opposing traffic flow is little different from junctions which actually are give ways.

This needs to change. City councils love to tell us that new infrastructure is "smart" and will reduce congestion, but it never seems to work out like that on the ground, especially not in city centres where you most need to facilitate as many people to keep moving as possible, including pedestrians and cyclists.

The quid pro quo of the absolute duty to stop at red should be that it should only be red if there is conflicting traffic (of any kind, including pedestrians), not just if there might be. People aren't stupid, not in this respect anyway: they are fully capable of noting that at a given junction you often get long red periods where nothing happens and react accordingly.

[wallmeerkat]

Leaving aside equipment failure, the main issue for me is not so much total wait time as time spent waiting at red when no-one is benefiting.

Complex intersections or long single-track sections past roadworks are necessarily going to involve long red periods for any given direction. If we must insist on there being 8 billion of us and on living in large conurbations, that's just life

What gets my biscuit, and also takes the goat, is multiple sets of lights for fairly insignificant junctions, where the chances are high that you wait through an entire cycle without anyone making use of the fact that you've stopped. In other words, strict liability aside, you could have carried right on and neither endangered nor inconvenienced anyone. Moreover, where there are a lot of minor junctions like this, they also affect the utility of lights at major junctions. You end up stopping one direction of traffic for nothing, and then as soon as traffic appears from the direction that has green, the lights change to red. And people wonder why some road users "ignore" red lights - I don't think they do, actually, in most cases; they simply treat them as give ways in the knowledge that the opposing traffic flow is little different from junctions which actually are give ways.

This needs to change. City councils love to tell us that new infrastructure is "smart" and will reduce congestion, but it never seems to work out like that on the ground, especially not in city centres where you most need to facilitate as many people to keep moving as possible, including pedestrians and cyclists.

The quid pro quo of the absolute duty to stop at red should be that it should only be red if there is conflicting traffic (of any kind, including pedestrians), not just if there might be. People aren't stupid, not in this respect anyway: they are fully capable of noting that at a given junction you often get long red periods where nothing happens and react accordingly.

Certainly as a pedestrian where there is less of a liability, I'm sure we've all crossed junctions where the pedestrian signal has been red but we have judged that it was safe to cross.

As a motorist there are times I'm at a red light (eg. a signalised motorway junction when not busy at night) where I thought if it was a traffic officer directing traffic they would've happily waved me on.