Many thought the Dartford Crossing would become toll-free when the initial period ended but the toll remains, albeit under a different name - quite possibly the same logic will be used by the government of the day to keep charges on the M6T.Peter Freeman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:17 ^ You're right, that's just my assumption, and I may be wrong.
Even in AU, a government could continue to toll after franchise expiry, but generally they don't. A government could slap a toll on any of its roads whenever it likes, but they don't because there are elections to consider. The UK, unlike AU, doesn't toll roads (historical oddities aside) except for major structures across estuaries. M6Toll is a one-off, and is not well-liked. Hence my assumption.
M6 J10 Improvements
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- Ruperts Trooper
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
This is quite a different situation though. As I've mentioned before, tolls are generally economically inefficient, as they tend to push traffic onto less appropriate routes (e.g. shunpiking M6T or Seven Crossing when tolled), but the Dartford toll is efficient as it allocates limited space to higher value or essential uses.Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 13:21Many thought the Dartford Crossing would become toll-free when the initial period ended but the toll remains, albeit under a different name - quite possibly the same logic will be used by the government of the day to keep charges on the M6T.Peter Freeman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:17 ^ You're right, that's just my assumption, and I may be wrong.
Even in AU, a government could continue to toll after franchise expiry, but generally they don't. A government could slap a toll on any of its roads whenever it likes, but they don't because there are elections to consider. The UK, unlike AU, doesn't toll roads (historical oddities aside) except for major structures across estuaries. M6Toll is a one-off, and is not well-liked. Hence my assumption.
- Mapper89062
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
If the tolls were removed from the M6 Toll, then I don't think relief to the M6 would be that great, simply because there's not much traffic that actually wants to bypass the West Midlands area. Instead, what would happen is that suppressed demand for local journeys will be released (some new demand, some shifted over from the A5, A38 and other parallel roads.)
This is part of the reason for all the tolls that are being used in countries still building big roads, and if you want to make sure strategic journeys don't ignore the toll roads you need to either a) place them such that there is no sensible free route, like at Dartford, or b) price them to make them work out good value for longer journeys but very expensive for shorter commutes and suchlike.
This is part of the reason for all the tolls that are being used in countries still building big roads, and if you want to make sure strategic journeys don't ignore the toll roads you need to either a) place them such that there is no sensible free route, like at Dartford, or b) price them to make them work out good value for longer journeys but very expensive for shorter commutes and suchlike.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
The amount of shunpiking traffic using the A5 and A38 shows how ineffective the M6 Toll is. If motorists are prepared to sit in solid traffic like this all the way from Weeford Island to Wall Island then it shows they would rather burn money on idling engines than pay the toll.
Regarding the congestion at J10 the M6 Toll doesn't really come into play. None of the traffic using the roundabout would benefit from the removal of the tolls as the M6 Toll would not be a route this traffic would use.
Regarding the congestion at J10 the M6 Toll doesn't really come into play. None of the traffic using the roundabout would benefit from the removal of the tolls as the M6 Toll would not be a route this traffic would use.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
The only decent solution here would be to try and manipulate Brummies into using public transport more frequently. “Stop using thy cars” I would say, “then ye shalt be blessed with the gift of open lanes”.Truvelo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:16 The amount of shunpiking traffic using the A5 and A38 shows how ineffective the M6 Toll is. If motorists are prepared to sit in solid traffic like this all the way from Weeford Island to Wall Island then it shows they would rather burn money on idling engines than pay the toll.
Regarding the congestion at J10 the M6 Toll doesn't really come into play. None of the traffic using the roundabout would benefit from the removal of the tolls as the M6 Toll would not be a route this traffic would use.
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- Steven
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
How would getting Brummies to use public transport more frequently help a junction well outside Birmingham's sphere of influence?DanT97 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:26The only decent solution here would be to try and manipulate Brummies into using public transport more frequently. “Stop using thy cars” I would say, “then ye shalt be blessed with the gift of open lanes”.Truvelo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:16 The amount of shunpiking traffic using the A5 and A38 shows how ineffective the M6 Toll is. If motorists are prepared to sit in solid traffic like this all the way from Weeford Island to Wall Island then it shows they would rather burn money on idling engines than pay the toll.
Regarding the congestion at J10 the M6 Toll doesn't really come into play. None of the traffic using the roundabout would benefit from the removal of the tolls as the M6 Toll would not be a route this traffic would use.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
If it’s getting close to the toll they would need to pay, where’s the sense in that??Truvelo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:16The amount of shunpiking traffic using the A5 and A38 shows how ineffective the M6 Toll is. If motorists are prepared to sit in solid traffic like this all the way from Weeford Island to Wall Island then it shows they would rather burn money on idling engines than pay the toll.
Behaviour like that is wilful - if it’s going to cost you (near enough) the same, but you still refuse to pay on principle.
Blame Walsall??
Re: M6 J10 Improvements
I could relieve M6 J10 by Just Getting The Tram to work instead of driving but this would take 1h30m instead of 40mDanT97 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:26The only decent solution here would be to try and manipulate Brummies into using public transport more frequently. “Stop using thy cars” I would say, “then ye shalt be blessed with the gift of open lanes”.Truvelo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:16 The amount of shunpiking traffic using the A5 and A38 shows how ineffective the M6 Toll is. If motorists are prepared to sit in solid traffic like this all the way from Weeford Island to Wall Island then it shows they would rather burn money on idling engines than pay the toll.
Regarding the congestion at J10 the M6 Toll doesn't really come into play. None of the traffic using the roundabout would benefit from the removal of the tolls as the M6 Toll would not be a route this traffic would use.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
I think there could be a fair amount of people who would simply just not want to pay the toll on principle and would sit on any free road to make the same journey no matter how congested it is.Berk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 17:38If it’s getting close to the toll they would need to pay, where’s the sense in that??Truvelo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 21:16The amount of shunpiking traffic using the A5 and A38 shows how ineffective the M6 Toll is. If motorists are prepared to sit in solid traffic like this all the way from Weeford Island to Wall Island then it shows they would rather burn money on idling engines than pay the toll.
Behaviour like that is wilful - if it’s going to cost you (near enough) the same, but you still refuse to pay on principle.Blame Walsall??
It's certainly an argument in this case, for them to have made the current toll road free, for the long distance traffic, but put the tolls on the old M6 through Birmingham between M5 and M42, which would act as a deterrent - but with the obvious issues of then charging local traffic (unless they use the A452 instead, for example) and also whether it would be possible easily to toll a previously free road...
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
The M6 southbound onslip has been reduced to a single lane for about a week now and the hard shoulder coned off between J10 and J9. This causes traffic to back up and lock the eastern side of the roundabout. Traffic from the Black Country Route heading to the M6 south blocks traffic from the north heading to the Black Country Route. It's not helped by the driver of the white lorry on the left who leave at J10 and then go up and down to rejoin the M6 rather that sit in the queue on the M6 below.
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- ReissOmari
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
The permanent traffic signals have finally been fully installed and turned on! Not sure what it's like around the rest of the country, but the West Midlands seem to hate installing mast arm signals which would have been much more beneficial here considering the amount of lanes.
If I'm not wrong, these were the last mast arm signals I recall in going up in the Birmingham area anyway over 15 years ago.
If I'm not wrong, these were the last mast arm signals I recall in going up in the Birmingham area anyway over 15 years ago.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
Considering the number of gantry structures installed I'm surprised overhead signals weren't installed on those - you can see a good example of this at M65 J6, which locals now call the Whitebirk Grand Prix:ReissOmari wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:31 The permanent traffic signals have finally been fully installed and turned on! Not sure what it's like around the rest of the country, but the West Midlands seem to hate installing mast arm signals which would have been much more beneficial here considering the amount of lanes.
If I'm not wrong, these were the last mast arm signals I recall in going up in the Birmingham area anyway over 15 years ago.
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
Obviously now I've finished working around there and stopped using J10 to commute, they'll probably finish the roadworks within days
- Ruperts Trooper
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
It's always been like that - when I commuted from Tamworth to Birmingham they were building the M42 from J9-J10, then when I commuted from Tamworth to Derby they were building the A42 !
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
Stoke-on-Trent loves those!ReissOmari wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:31 The permanent traffic signals have finally been fully installed and turned on! Not sure what it's like around the rest of the country, but the West Midlands seem to hate installing mast arm signals which would have been much more beneficial here considering the amount of lanes.
If I'm not wrong, these were the last mast arm signals I recall in going up in the Birmingham area anyway over 15 years ago.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
LOL that’s so sad! Had they built the original M42 as intended, you wouldn’t have had to go through the trouble of them building the A42!Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 22:13It's always been like that - when I commuted from Tamworth to Birmingham they were building the M42 from J9-J10, then when I commuted from Tamworth to Derby they were building the A42 !
Re: M6 J10 Improvements
The first section of the M42 was a simple link road from the M6 to Birmingham Airport and the NEC. It opened in the mid 70's when money was really tight after the 1970's depression and it was 1985 before it went any farther. Even so you got the A42 because they ran out of money before reaching the M1 !KILLER KNIGHT wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 19:19 LOL that’s so sad! Had they built the original M42 as intended, you wouldn’t have had to go through the trouble of them building the A42!
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
I suspect that if the A42 had been built to motorway standard north of junction 11, it would still have been phased later than the southern stretches.KILLER KNIGHT wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 19:19LOL that’s so sad! Had they built the original M42 as intended, you wouldn’t have had to go through the trouble of them building the A42!Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 22:13It's always been like that - when I commuted from Tamworth to Birmingham they were building the M42 from J9-J10, then when I commuted from Tamworth to Derby they were building the A42 !
Since the M42 is only 2 lane north of junction 9, there's little difference in practice between that section of M42 and the A42.
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Re: M6 J10 Improvements
www.bbc.com/news/articles/cxrwqrqd72do£78m motorway scheme 'makes no difference'