60 mph motorway limits

[A9NWIL]

Perhaps a more revolutionary option is to make all diesel vehicles have a lower mandatory speed compared with other vehicles? That could be made permanent in law too! If say all diesel cars and vans had to travel at 60mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 50mph on single carriageways, just like larger vehicles thats a good start.
Also banning lorries at peak times on motorways and dual carriageways, in fact any road thats outside built up areas, or above 40mph, as has been suggested is a good idea. Reducing them to 50mph top speed on motorways and dual carriageways could also help.

This would make diesel cars unpopular if they are small vehicles, larger ones are good for things like towing so still have use currently, which again is already under reduced speed limits.

I'm not sure, and I think that the studies might help with this, whether or not the problem is particularly caused by vehicles in peak time, or how long actually does it take for the NOx to dissipate.

In terms of HGV speed limits, they're already limited to 90kmh, which is generally assumed to the be sweet spot in terms of emissions, so it's unlikely that a further reduction would help.

The other issue with different speed limits for different vehicles is that vehicles changing lane to overtake can cause bunching up of vehicles and contribute to phantom jams.

A final aspect is that encouraging a shift back to petrol from diesel will increase carbon emissions. People should be encouraged to select the correct vehicle for the sort of journeys that they typically make. It is also difficult to impose restrictions on hours that hauliers can drive, as freight and distribution is important to the economy. Which brings me back to the planning issues of the local authorities in the area allowing the construction of logistics centres next to the motorway.

I don't think any of the solutions are popular or easy. I would have liked to see this trial accompanied by 80mph trials in rural areas where NOx is less of an issue.

The issue with vehicles bunching is why I suggested that diesels be banned from the outside lane of 3 or more lane carriageway, that would allow petrol vehicles that are able to do 70mph to pass in the outside lane. I dont think encouraging a switch to petrol is necessarily helpful, except for some people that perhaps want smaller cars that may not suit an electric yet. Electric or alternative fuel should be the encouragement direction for getting rid of small diesels. People with larger diesels or vans have them as they need the grunt to transport larger amounts of stuff, they are less likely to be worried about a reduction in limits, van drivers already being limited on non motorway dual carriageways to 60mph anyway. Perhaps to enforce the speeds diesel vehicles should be required to have limiters put on for 100km/h like busses. With vans small minibuses and small lorries needing to be done first and cars done later. There would likely be a sudden amount of diesel cars on the market where people dont want or have money to install limiters. Likely dealers would be looking to take old diesels for scrapping or exporting to help get them off the road then.

You could be right about HGVs though and I agree about the idea of trialling 80mph limits, or if we switched to metric we could have had 120km/h, in rural areas at the least. Then a ban on building within 500 metres of any 120km/h or 80mph stretches of motorways.

[WHBM]

Electric or alternative fuel should be the encouragement direction for getting rid of small diesels.

Electric cars are impractical for people who do not have their own driveways. As it has been government housing policy in recent times to encourage developments in urban areas without separate driveways, there's just no ability for people to charge their cars.

I have a petrol car. We also have pool Teslas in the office. I took one of these, fully charged, from London to Rugby (85 miles), and couldn't get back without wasting an hour at a services on the return part-recharging it. I do lots of journeys longer than this. I'm doing London to Bradford, return, later this week.

[Truvelo]

We also have pool Teslas in the office. I took one of these, fully charged, from London to Rugby (85 miles), and couldn't get back without wasting an hour at a services on the return part-recharging it. I do lots of journeys longer than this. I'm doing London to Bradford, return, later this week.

And this is why I mentioned earlier in this thread regarding the pent up demand for EV's. If the government is serious about getting us high milers into cleaner cars we need cars that can cover the distances we travel in a single charge. I'm starting to sound like a stuck record each time I hear of a rave review for an EV with an 'impressive' 250 mile range

[A9NWIL]

Electric or alternative fuel should be the encouragement direction for getting rid of small diesels.

Electric cars are impractical for people who do not have their own driveways. As it has been government housing policy in recent times to encourage developments in urban areas without separate driveways, there's just no ability for people to charge their cars.

I have a petrol car. We also have pool Teslas in the office. I took one of these, fully charged, from London to Rugby (85 miles), and couldn't get back without wasting an hour at a services on the return part-recharging it. I do lots of journeys longer than this. I'm doing London to Bradford, return, later this week.

Thats why I said for people that its appropriate for. TBH the government should be investing in electric car infrastructure by placing electric charge points (or getting companies to install them with subsidies), on all residential streets on stretches that can be parked on.

[Bryn666]

Electric or alternative fuel should be the encouragement direction for getting rid of small diesels.

Electric cars are impractical for people who do not have their own driveways. As it has been government housing policy in recent times to encourage developments in urban areas without separate driveways, there's just no ability for people to charge their cars.

I have a petrol car. We also have pool Teslas in the office. I took one of these, fully charged, from London to Rugby (85 miles), and couldn't get back without wasting an hour at a services on the return part-recharging it. I do lots of journeys longer than this. I'm doing London to Bradford, return, later this week.

Thats why I said for people that its appropriate for. TBH the government should be investing in electric car infrastructure by placing electric charge points (or getting companies to install them with subsidies), on all residential streets on stretches that can be parked on.

Conversely people could argue that having electrical charging points on the public highway is contrary to its purpose. If EV tech is going to take off then you need to be able to swap a battery out and charge it off a standard indoor 240v plug socket in your house. Having to build additional infrastructure on street is not the answer. That's the equivalent of saying BP should stick a petrol pump in every street.

[c2R]

The issue with vehicles bunching is why I suggested that diesels be banned from the outside lane of 3 or more lane carriageway, that would allow petrol vehicles that are able to do 70mph to pass in the outside lane. I dont think encouraging a switch to petrol is necessarily helpful, except for some people that perhaps want smaller cars that may not suit an electric yet. Electric or alternative fuel should be the encouragement direction for getting rid of small diesels. People with larger diesels or vans have them as they need the grunt to transport larger amounts of stuff, they are less likely to be worried about a reduction in limits, van drivers already being limited on non motorway dual carriageways to 60mph anyway.

Well, currently I drive a big diesel car so am part of this problem. I do so because the mpg is excellent and the CO2 emissions are lower than an equivalent size petrol. If there was a reduction in speed limit for diesels only, enforced by limiters, then I'd simply switch to petrol - and I'm sure many others would do the same. While I'd love an electric vehicle, we're not there yet with technology to allow me to switch. So the externality of that policy would likely be a shift which would increase CO2 emissions.

[Bryn666]

The fastest way to slash emissions is to capitalise on those willing to work remotely and eliminate their car commute.

The roads are freed up for those who have no alternative but to commute by car, we don't need to spend billions on road schemes that generate more solo occupancy trips either.

This is too obvious a policy and since it upsets the established order as well as countless micromanagers who need to have an office to whinge at it won't happen.

[booshank]

Electric cars are impractical for people who do not have their own driveways. As it has been government housing policy in recent times to encourage developments in urban areas without separate driveways, there's just no ability for people to charge their cars.

I have a petrol car. We also have pool Teslas in the office. I took one of these, fully charged, from London to Rugby (85 miles), and couldn't get back without wasting an hour at a services on the return part-recharging it. I do lots of journeys longer than this. I'm doing London to Bradford, return, later this week.

Thats why I said for people that its appropriate for. TBH the government should be investing in electric car infrastructure by placing electric charge points (or getting companies to install them with subsidies), on all residential streets on stretches that can be parked on.

Conversely people could argue that having electrical charging points on the public highway is contrary to its purpose. If EV tech is going to take off then you need to be able to swap a battery out and charge it off a standard indoor 240v plug socket in your house. Having to build additional infrastructure on street is not the answer. That's the equivalent of saying BP should stick a petrol pump in every street.

The battery with any current or foreseeable future technology is going to be too large and heavy for that to be conceivably practical. It's not even practical to swap batteries at a special swapping station. Besides, there's no logical reason for EV charging tech to mirror petrol fuelling infrastructure given how different the technologies are. Maybe it would be logical to have a petrol pump in every street if every house, streetlamp, traffic light etc already had a little petrol supply tube to it.

[A9NWIL]

Thats why I said for people that its appropriate for. TBH the government should be investing in electric car infrastructure by placing electric charge points (or getting companies to install them with subsidies), on all residential streets on stretches that can be parked on.

Conversely people could argue that having electrical charging points on the public highway is contrary to its purpose. If EV tech is going to take off then you need to be able to swap a battery out and charge it off a standard indoor 240v plug socket in your house. Having to build additional infrastructure on street is not the answer. That's the equivalent of saying BP should stick a petrol pump in every street.

The battery with any current or foreseeable future technology is going to be too large and heavy for that to be conceivably practical. It's not even practical to swap batteries at a special swapping station. Besides, there's no logical reason for EV charging tech to mirror petrol fuelling infrastructure given how different the technologies are. Maybe it would be logical to have a petrol pump in every street if every house, streetlamp, traffic light etc already had a little petrol supply tube to it.

There should be the ability for specialists to swap batteries out when they wear out, but I agree its totally not practical to charge them indoors in people's homes! With lampposts you have hit on the source of the electric supply for EV charging, there may need to be double the charge points to lampposts though.

[A9NWIL]

The issue with vehicles bunching is why I suggested that diesels be banned from the outside lane of 3 or more lane carriageway, that would allow petrol vehicles that are able to do 70mph to pass in the outside lane. I dont think encouraging a switch to petrol is necessarily helpful, except for some people that perhaps want smaller cars that may not suit an electric yet. Electric or alternative fuel should be the encouragement direction for getting rid of small diesels. People with larger diesels or vans have them as they need the grunt to transport larger amounts of stuff, they are less likely to be worried about a reduction in limits, van drivers already being limited on non motorway dual carriageways to 60mph anyway.

Well, currently I drive a big diesel car so am part of this problem. I do so because the mpg is excellent and the CO2 emissions are lower than an equivalent size petrol. If there was a reduction in speed limit for diesels only, enforced by limiters, then I'd simply switch to petrol - and I'm sure many others would do the same. While I'd love an electric vehicle, we're not there yet with technology to allow me to switch. So the externality of that policy would likely be a shift which would increase CO2 emissions.

Perhaps for larger diesel vehicles that are Euro 6 compliant they could be exempt? There would have to be a cut off point on size somewhere, anything smaller than SUVs, MPVs and Estate cars would be fully subject to the new regulations.

[Bryn666]

Conversely people could argue that having electrical charging points on the public highway is contrary to its purpose. If EV tech is going to take off then you need to be able to swap a battery out and charge it off a standard indoor 240v plug socket in your house. Having to build additional infrastructure on street is not the answer. That's the equivalent of saying BP should stick a petrol pump in every street.

The battery with any current or foreseeable future technology is going to be too large and heavy for that to be conceivably practical. It's not even practical to swap batteries at a special swapping station. Besides, there's no logical reason for EV charging tech to mirror petrol fuelling infrastructure given how different the technologies are. Maybe it would be logical to have a petrol pump in every street if every house, streetlamp, traffic light etc already had a little petrol supply tube to it.

There should be the ability for specialists to swap batteries out when they wear out, but I agree its totally not practical to charge them indoors in people's homes! With lampposts you have hit on the source of the electric supply for EV charging, there may need to be double the charge points to lampposts though.

Why should the public electricity supply be used to subsidise driving? Are you going to pay a surcharge for using the council's network, assuming the streetlights are the council's network and not fed through DNO apparatus?

Why should the public highway be obstructed by wires strewn from private vehicles? How is this compliant with the Equalities Act towards visually impaired pedestrians, or those with mobility issues that can't step over a wire? How are you going to protect these assets from vandalism? How are you going to ensure that the supply is used for charging EVs only?

It is not as simple as plugging a wire into a lamppost. You would need to rewire the entire circuit due to all the power being drawn from chargers, so this will cost millions. And you expect people without EVs, like myself, to subsidise this do you?

[A9NWIL]

The battery with any current or foreseeable future technology is going to be too large and heavy for that to be conceivably practical. It's not even practical to swap batteries at a special swapping station. Besides, there's no logical reason for EV charging tech to mirror petrol fuelling infrastructure given how different the technologies are. Maybe it would be logical to have a petrol pump in every street if every house, streetlamp, traffic light etc already had a little petrol supply tube to it.

There should be the ability for specialists to swap batteries out when they wear out, but I agree its totally not practical to charge them indoors in people's homes! With lampposts you have hit on the source of the electric supply for EV charging, there may need to be double the charge points to lampposts though.

Why should the public electricity supply be used to subsidise driving? Are you going to pay a surcharge for using the council's network, assuming the streetlights are the council's network and not fed through DNO apparatus?

Why should the public highway be obstructed by wires strewn from private vehicles? How is this compliant with the Equalities Act towards visually impaired pedestrians, or those with mobility issues that can't step over a wire? How are you going to protect these assets from vandalism? How are you going to ensure that the supply is used for charging EVs only?

It is not as simple as plugging a wire into a lamppost. You would need to rewire the entire circuit due to all the power being drawn from chargers, so this will cost millions. And you expect people without EVs, like myself, to subsidise this do you?

Wow questions questions!
Yes a payment system should be installed where each car owner/keeper gets a keycard or other such device that activates their account. People pay in the same ways they normally do for electricity, either prepaid by putting so much on their account in advance, could be done online, over phone or at a pay point. Or pay a monthly fee in arrears. Socket is only open with metal sliding door when driver touches their keycard. Driver uses their own cables.
As for making sure cables arent all over the pavement, charge points have to be almost on the kerb like bollards that are by kerbs. Drivers need to be parked right next to the charger cameras could be built into the charge point that activate to pick up drivers who park so far away they are trailing cables. If they park too far off and trail cables they get a fine from the council.
As for protecting against vandalism, make the units very robust objects that would need a very heavy vehicle running into them to break.

As for non EV owners subsidising, the government should subsidise the project as an initial layout cost, but it would be paid for by people paying to charge their cars. So the government would make their money back
As for using the electricity from the street lighting circuit well that needs redoing in many areas to upgrade to LED lighting which is a fraction of the cost of the old sodium, so that shouldnt overload the circuit. Each light could be given a remote unit along with a light sensitive switch on top of the light. That way electricity could be powering the circuit up to the control units in the lights 24/7 meaning that the EV chargers could get the power they needed 24/7 too.

They wouldnt be installed by driveways, between driveways yes but not by driveways, that way visitors could charge their cars if parked on the street, but people with driveways would need their own chargers.
The units wouldnt be installed anywhere its dangerous to park either.

[Vierwielen]

During the fuel crises of the mid-1970's South Africa introduced some very stringent regulations - 80 km/h maximum speed and garages closed from 17:00 on Friday until 08:00 on Monday. Many people just skipped their weekend drives, though Swaziland opened up their petrol stations from 12:00 on Sundays. Johannesburg to Swaziland is about 300 km - too far for a return trip on one tank, but an easy trip on a single tank. Swaziland was not part of South Africa, so many of the delights not available in South Africa were available there - casinos, relaxed censorship etc.

[Bryn666]

Wow questions questions!
Yes a payment system should be installed where each car owner/keeper gets a keycard or other such device that activates their account. People pay in the same ways they normally do for electricity, either prepaid by putting so much on their account in advance, could be done online, over phone or at a pay point. Or pay a monthly fee in arrears. Socket is only open with metal sliding door when driver touches their keycard. Driver uses their own cables.
As for making sure cables arent all over the pavement, charge points have to be almost on the kerb like bollards that are by kerbs. Drivers need to be parked right next to the charger cameras could be built into the charge point that activate to pick up drivers who park so far away they are trailing cables. If they park too far off and trail cables they get a fine from the council.
As for protecting against vandalism, make the units very robust objects that would need a very heavy vehicle running into them to break.

As for non EV owners subsidising, the government should subsidise the project as an initial layout cost, but it would be paid for by people paying to charge their cars. So the government would make their money back
As for using the electricity from the street lighting circuit well that needs redoing in many areas to upgrade to LED lighting which is a fraction of the cost of the old sodium, so that shouldnt overload the circuit. Each light could be given a remote unit along with a light sensitive switch on top of the light. That way electricity could be powering the circuit up to the control units in the lights 24/7 meaning that the EV chargers could get the power they needed 24/7 too.

They wouldnt be installed by driveways, between driveways yes but not by driveways, that way visitors could charge their cars if parked on the street, but people with driveways would need their own chargers.
The units wouldnt be installed anywhere its dangerous to park either.

But still obstructing the public highway for private users benefit then. The public highway is not for charging EVs. If you've bought a car, it is your responsibility to find somewhere safe to store (and if it's electric, fuel it). The local taxpayer is not responsible for retrofitting the street to suit entitled car owners.

[someone]

The battery with any current or foreseeable future technology is going to be too large and heavy for that to be conceivably practical.

Why must a car have only one battery?

In Japan the big four motorcycle companies are working together on swappable batteries.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new ... y-project/

In case it is not clear in the photos, the bike has two batteries. And those swappable batteries are a nearly three-year-old technology.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/10/honda-ba ... s-atv-utv/

If exchanging is done at an equivalent to petrol stations, so they do not need to be lightweight for carrying, then you can use ones much larger and heavier as you can have equipment in those locations to lift them in and out.

[booshank]

The battery with any current or foreseeable future technology is going to be too large and heavy for that to be conceivably practical. It's not even practical to swap batteries at a special swapping station. Besides, there's no logical reason for EV charging tech to mirror petrol fuelling infrastructure given how different the technologies are. Maybe it would be logical to have a petrol pump in every street if every house, streetlamp, traffic light etc already had a little petrol supply tube to it.

There should be the ability for specialists to swap batteries out when they wear out, but I agree its totally not practical to charge them indoors in people's homes! With lampposts you have hit on the source of the electric supply for EV charging, there may need to be double the charge points to lampposts though.

Why should the public electricity supply be used to subsidise driving? Are you going to pay a surcharge for using the council's network, assuming the streetlights are the council's network and not fed through DNO apparatus?

Why should the public highway be obstructed by wires strewn from private vehicles? How is this compliant with the Equalities Act towards visually impaired pedestrians, or those with mobility issues that can't step over a wire? How are you going to protect these assets from vandalism? How are you going to ensure that the supply is used for charging EVs only?

It is not as simple as plugging a wire into a lamppost. You would need to rewire the entire circuit due to all the power being drawn from chargers, so this will cost millions. And you expect people without EVs, like myself, to subsidise this do you?

Once you go down the "Why should x be used to subsidise y?" road things get rather tricky. I could equally say why should we subsidise street lighting - people should either stay at home after dark or provide their own light source from a torch etc. Why should I subsidise education, when I don't have children etc etc.

The fact is we do these things because they're recognised as a public good. Most people need or at least expect to be able to drive to get to work, to visit people and places etc. You can argue that they shouldn't but the fact is they do. Even authoritarian governments don't usually do highly unpopular things unnecessarily, if they want to stay in power. So it's highly unlikely that the majority of people are going to stop driving. Yes, public transport can and should be improved but private transport isn't just going to go away.

So if people are going to keep driving, the question is how to reduce the health and environmental cost ie a public good. Hence the widely recognised need for the electrification of road transport.

[ManomayLR]

IMO M1 J33-34 is a complete waste. They've just spent ages giving it a fourth lane and fancy VSL equipment and now they're going to go ahead and give it a fixed limit of 60 anyway - will the MS4s be used to display the 60 or fixed signs?

[Micro The Maniac]

If EV tech is going to take off then you need to be able to swap a battery out and charge it off a standard indoor 240v plug socket in your house.

Unlikely... the battery pack is quite an important structural part of the car. And of a size/weight that it is impractical to remove/move.

We are not talking of a handful of AAs

[Micro The Maniac]

The fastest way to slash emissions is to capitalise on those willing to work remotely and eliminate their car commute.

I'd suggest getting more of the HGVs off the major roads would be a faster solution.

Meanwhile, replacing the remaining diesel buses should be an absolute priority.

[c2R]

There are real health problems in some areas but tinkering around the edges wont help in places like central London and Birmingham. They need more radical solutions. Its not just cars of course but diesel vans, buses bin lorries etc are at least as bad.

And Heathrow, looking at the map you posted - those clearly look light flight paths...