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Bryn666 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 14:13
There was a more bonafide circular route once in Blackburn - the 5A and 5C. Not sure if that still runs.
And, of course, the two circular routes in Birmingham, the No 8 and the No 11. I've travelled on part of the 11 in the 70s, but never the 8. The 11 is 27 miles round. There were also a few "belt line" routes, but the numbers escape me, it's too long ago ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midl ... s_route_11
No 8 is the Inner Circle. I don't think I've ever had cause to use it even in part. It takes a route that is generally slightly outside the A4540 Ring Road. The 11, the Outer Circle, is mostly on A4040, the former Outer Ring Road, but departs from it in some places. Going way back there was also Route 101, the Centrebus that did a circuit of the city centre. It was operated by a small vehicle rather than a full size double decker. Road changes mean that its former route is no longer available in any case.
Wolverhampton has the 25, which historically was labelled as "Circular", but actually it's a more of a spiral. It starts in the city centre, heads SSW to Goldthorn Park, then east to Bilston, north east to Willenhall, north to Wednesfield and the NW to end at Pendeford on the northern edge of the urban area. It's actually pretty sensible, linking the larger suburban centres together, but absolutely not a service you would ever catch end-to-end unless you really wanted to do it. And there's no circular service around the western side at all.
Similarly to the Birmingham example, once upon a time there was also a Centrebus (500) that did a circuit of the city centre, and again was smaller vehicles. I'd assume that Coventry once had one too, given I think they were a Centro/WMPTE thing.
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Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:36
This is probably for similar reasons to the Circle Line in London no longer running as a circle, there being issues with timetable recovery after delays when there is no opportunity to stop and turn round.
The additional problem with the Circle Line was that the trains had to cross the flat junction at/near Edgeware Road - this was causing problems with the timing of the Hammersmith & City Line. Unfurling the loop removed the conflicts. I guess grade-separating tube lines is a tad more difficult than on the surface?
There are a few GSJs on the deep level "tube" lines, such as Camden Town, but not many. The sub-surface lines don't have any GSJs as far as I know. It would be very expensive to convert existing flat junctions on these lines as the loading gauge is the same as normal railways, (or almost).
There are GSJs on the District Line around Earl's Court, where there a number of complicated junctions. I can't think of anywhere else on the sub-surface lines within Central London.
Steven wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:47
Similarly to the Birmingham example, once upon a time there was also a Centrebus (500) that did a circuit of the city centre, and again was smaller vehicles. I'd assume that Coventry once had one too, given I think they were a Centro/WMPTE thing.
I recall the Wolverhampton one was free to use although it's been over 30 years since I last used it.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir? Big and complex.
Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:48
The additional problem with the Circle Line was that the trains had to cross the flat junction at/near Edgeware Road - this was causing problems with the timing of the Hammersmith & City Line. Unfurling the loop removed the conflicts.
They still do, the junction is west of Edgware Road
The additional problem with the Circle Line was that the trains had to cross the flat junction at/near Edgeware Road - this was causing problems with the timing of the Hammersmith & City Line. Unfurling the loop removed the conflicts. I guess grade-separating tube lines is a tad more difficult than on the surface?
There are a few GSJs on the deep level "tube" lines, such as Camden Town, but not many. The sub-surface lines don't have any GSJs as far as I know. It would be very expensive to convert existing flat junctions on these lines as the loading gauge is the same as normal railways, (or almost).
The Metropolitan has a diveunder junction where the Uxbridge branch diverges from the Amersham/Chesham branch.
First reports from the expanded ULEZ are that the anticipated changes in behaviour have occurred and there is an increased compliance rate to 95% in the outer boroughs apart from vans. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67266241
Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:48
The additional problem with the Circle Line was that the trains had to cross the flat junction at/near Edgeware Road - this was causing problems with the timing of the Hammersmith & City Line. Unfurling the loop removed the conflicts.
They still do, the junction is west of Edgware Road
And then there's another one nearby at Baker Street where the Metropolitan Line joins.
The issue was the lack of terminus. The Circle Line had a few minutes slack inserted at Aldgate, the only platforms exclusively used by it, but a proper terminus at Hammersmith is much better, plus the option to turn round early. The disadvantage of course is that Paddington-Hammersmith has too many trains while there are no direct services where there should be eg Baker Street-Bayswater.
Steven wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:47
Wolverhampton has the 25, which historically was labelled as "Circular", but actually it's a more of a spiral. It starts in the city centre, heads SSW to Goldthorn Park, then east to Bilston, north east to Willenhall, north to Wednesfield and the NW to end at Pendeford on the northern edge of the urban area. It's actually pretty sensible, linking the larger suburban centres together, but absolutely not a service you would ever catch end-to-end unless you really wanted to do it. And there's no circular service around the western side at all.
Similarly to the Birmingham example, once upon a time there was also a Centrebus (500) that did a circuit of the city centre, and again was smaller vehicles. I'd assume that Coventry once had one too, given I think they were a Centro/WMPTE thing.
Dundee in the 1970s had a "circular" i.e. 7 in one direction and 8 in the other. The route would start in the "centre" (which in Dundee is about as far south as you can get), go to the east, then fairly far north in the city and partly into the west before returning to the centre. Was useful to connect my area with the area my grandparents lived in and then onto the area near Balgay Hill.
The spiral not actually named as such but 13 started in the centre, went a short way east a bit north and ended up at the new (at the time) Ninewells Hospital in the west. 14 returned along the same route.
They have probably changed beyond recognition since then !
I set up a ULEZ account last week so when I take the van into Outer London gigs I can just be billed at the end of the month.
Interestingly, the charges don't appear to run midnight to midnight. I was charged when I passed the Greater London boundary on the A20 Sidcup Bypass last Saturday afternoon, but not for driving the same way back at about 1am the following morning. Is this a mistake, or are TfL being a bit more sensible and just starting the 24 hour clock at the first point the cameras pinpoint you?
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Ritchie333 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:57
I set up a ULEZ account last week so when I take the van into Outer London gigs I can just be billed at the end of the month.
Interestingly, the charges don't appear to run midnight to midnight. I was charged when I passed the Greater London boundary on the A20 Sidcup Bypass last Saturday afternoon, but not for driving the same way back at about 1am the following morning. Is this a mistake, or are TfL being a bit more sensible and just starting the 24 hour clock at the first point the cameras pinpoint you?
Or are TfL being consistent with their approach on public transport, where they start a day at 4.30am?
