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When myself and my friend Steve have to go to Edmonton in a number of days time, to pick up an eBay purchase, now within the expanded ULEZ, by the time we've found (and paid for!) station parking, and paid two adult Travelcards, not to mention the aggravation of carrying electronic equipment on the Tube or a bus, it would have cost over twice the ULEZ charge, so we might as well pay the ULEZ charge and be able to park door–to–door and only have to carry stuff a few yards from the seller's house!
Chris Williams
Sounds like the charge has been set perfectly to make you consider other options but allow driving a non-compliant vehicle when circumstances necessitate it then?
Or, it's failed in its objective of keeping noncompliant vehicles out of London due to other changes being too high. You can't have it both ways.
I think it depends on whether the intention of the charge is for it to be a fine that deters all but the very wealthy (who are likely to have a compliant vehicle anyway) from driving in Greater London, or a deterrent encouraging people to only use their noncompliant vehicle when they still think it is the best option with the charge.
For example, if someone living in Cheshunt, 5 minutes walk from the station, is going to visit their mum in Edmonton, also 5 minutes walk from a station, they are now more likely to consider not making the journey in their 10 reg diesel
Sounds like the charge has been set perfectly to make you consider other options but allow driving a non-compliant vehicle when circumstances necessitate it then?
Or, it's failed in its objective of keeping noncompliant vehicles out of London due to other changes being too high. You can't have it both ways.
I think it depends on whether the intention of the charge is for it to be a fine that deters all but the very wealthy (who are likely to have a compliant vehicle anyway) from driving in Greater London, or a deterrent encouraging people to only use their noncompliant vehicle when they still think it is the best option with the charge.
For example, if someone living in Cheshunt, 5 minutes walk from the station, is going to visit their mum in Edmonton, also 5 minutes walk from a station, they are now more likely to consider not making the journey in their 10 reg diesel
That very much depends on how open the mind is of the person involved.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 09:18
Or, it's failed in its objective of keeping noncompliant vehicles out of London due to other changes being too high. You can't have it both ways.
I think it depends on whether the intention of the charge is for it to be a fine that deters all but the very wealthy (who are likely to have a compliant vehicle anyway) from driving in Greater London, or a deterrent encouraging people to only use their noncompliant vehicle when they still think it is the best option with the charge.
For example, if someone living in Cheshunt, 5 minutes walk from the station, is going to visit their mum in Edmonton, also 5 minutes walk from a station, they are now more likely to consider not making the journey in their 10 reg diesel
That very much depends on how open the mind is of the person involved.
That's true. In my experience, people in Hertfordshire are very much used to taking the train for journeys to Central London where speed and the cost and difficulty of parking 'in town' make it pretty much a no-brainer. However, using a car to travel to the suburbs is pretty common, even when there is a reasonably convenient station on the same line, as the speed and parking advantages of the train are much reduced or wiped out.
It may be that my hypothetical Cheshunt person is a Tottenham Hotspur fan, and will consider the train because they use it to go to matches, but it may be equally likely that it may not occur to them to do so and they will either put up with the charge, but moan incessantly about it or tell mum they can't afford to visit or will have to reduce the frequency of visits.
trickstat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 13:19
In my experience, people in Hertfordshire are very much used to taking the train for journeys to Central London where speed and the cost and difficulty of parking 'in town' make it pretty much a no-brainer. However, using a car to travel to the suburbs is pretty common, even when there is a reasonably convenient station on the same line, as the speed and parking advantages of the train are much reduced or wiped out.
Correct. Those well away from London tend to consider "Going to London" is inside Zone 1, for which rail is most convenient. But there are very many lesser trips across the boundary for which public transport is useless. This is really something I would have hoped the DfT would have taken a hand in, the Mayor is concerned entirely with those inside his electoral boundaries, I don't think I have seen one sentence from him and his team about those who cross from the Home Counties into London. How do you get to the Spurs match if you live in South Mimms. Which cross-boundary issues are surely something the national government should oversee.
A number of years ago I used to commute up the M3 to the BP Research Centre. At times I had a pass to use their parking garage (now demolished), but at other times I had to use their iverflow car park (entrance here). AS can be seen, the entrance is about 20 metres beyond the "Entrance to Feltham" sign. However the Google Map shows that Feltham actually starts a metre beyond the car park entrance, not before it!
That’s the problem with “Welcome to…” signs. No requirement to be on the actual border.
Case in point. Where do you enter Wales? Spin round 180 degrees. All the traffic you can see is in Wales. The overbridge is in Wales. If you (virtually) head wrong-way up the road you will get to a pair of end-of-clearway signs and a pair of clearway signs. The No-mans-land between them is where the border is.
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Big L wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 20:50
That’s the problem with “Welcome to…” signs. No requirement to be on the actual border.
Case in point. Where do you enter Wales? Spin round 180 degrees. All the traffic you can see is in Wales. The overbridge is in Wales. If you (virtually) head wrong-way up the road you will get to a pair of end-of-clearway signs and a pair of clearway signs. The No-mans-land between them is where the border is.
Are you sure that the "for 22 miles" clearway sign is in Wales - it is only in English. Of course, if the text read "↑ 36 km ↑", it would be totally language-neutral - the pair of up-arrows denoting "for the next" while "km" is the international symbol (not abbreviation) for "kilometre", regardless of language.
Big L wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 20:50
That’s the problem with “Welcome to…” signs. No requirement to be on the actual border.
Case in point. Where do you enter Wales? Spin round 180 degrees. All the traffic you can see is in Wales. The overbridge is in Wales. If you (virtually) head wrong-way up the road you will get to a pair of end-of-clearway signs and a pair of clearway signs. The No-mans-land between them is where the border is.
Are you sure that the "for 22 miles" clearway sign is in Wales - it is only in English. Of course, if the text read "↑ 36 km ↑", it would be totally language-neutral - the pair of up-arrows denoting "for the next" while "km" is the international symbol (not abbreviation) for "kilometre", regardless of language.
That plate appeared between ‘09 and ‘11 looking at the historic streetview. When did Wales get quite so strict about their signs?
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Big L wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 20:50
That’s the problem with “Welcome to…” signs. No requirement to be on the actual border.
Case in point. Where do you enter Wales? Spin round 180 degrees. All the traffic you can see is in Wales. The overbridge is in Wales. If you (virtually) head wrong-way up the road you will get to a pair of end-of-clearway signs and a pair of clearway signs. The No-mans-land between them is where the border is.
Are you sure that the "for 22 miles" clearway sign is in Wales - it is only in English. Of course, if the text read "↑ 36 km ↑", it would be totally language-neutral - the pair of up-arrows denoting "for the next" while "km" is the international symbol (not abbreviation) for "kilometre", regardless of language.
That plate appeared between ‘09 and ‘11 looking at the historic streetview. When did Wales get quite so strict about their signs?
And not only national boundary signs!
This sign tells you that you're entering the English village of Sedbury. But it's in the English village of Tutshill. And the bridge you're about to cross is in Tutshill. And the housing estate on the left. And the one on the right.
In fact you don't get to Sedbury until you've crossed the roundabout in the distance. Only when you get to the Harry Potter school after the roundabout can you be sure that you're in Sedbury. It must be at least half a kilometre away from the sign.
Big L wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 20:50
That’s the problem with “Welcome to…” signs. No requirement to be on the actual border.
Case in point. Where do you enter Wales? Spin round 180 degrees. All the traffic you can see is in Wales. The overbridge is in Wales. If you (virtually) head wrong-way up the road you will get to a pair of end-of-clearway signs and a pair of clearway signs. The No-mans-land between them is where the border is.
Are you sure that the "for 22 miles" clearway sign is in Wales - it is only in English. Of course, if the text read "↑ 36 km ↑", it would be totally language-neutral - the pair of up-arrows denoting "for the next" while "km" is the international symbol (not abbreviation) for "kilometre", regardless of language.
South Wales has always been less strict about these things and a like for like sign replacement from the original will have forgotten to update it.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
fras wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:11
I know it's a bit late to mention, but why is a thread about the London ULEZ got London Congestion Charge in its title ?
That’s a tough one.
Absolutely didn’t start as a discussion about Congestion Charge which drifted over time to be about ULEZ. That would be silly.
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WHBM wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 14:16
[Correct. Those well away from London tend to consider "Going to London" is inside Zone 1, for which rail is most convenient. But there are very many lesser trips across the boundary for which public transport is useless. This is really something I would have hoped the DfT would have taken a hand in, the Mayor is concerned entirely with those inside his electoral boundaries, I don't think I have seen one sentence from him and his team about those who cross from the Home Counties into London.
Exactly this. Ever since High Speed 1 started domestic services in 2009, getting from Ashford to Zone 1 is a no-brainer - everyone takes the train, which tends to be absolutely rammed full on weekends, especially around match times. But getting to outer London suburbs such as Bexley, Bromley and Woolwich is frustratingly difficult. You either have to go into Central London and back out again, take the "slow" train to Bromley South and change, or try and interchange between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet, which should be simple but isn't. Don't hold your breath on that last one.
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WHBM wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 14:16
[Correct. Those well away from London tend to consider "Going to London" is inside Zone 1, for which rail is most convenient. But there are very many lesser trips across the boundary for which public transport is useless. This is really something I would have hoped the DfT would have taken a hand in, the Mayor is concerned entirely with those inside his electoral boundaries, I don't think I have seen one sentence from him and his team about those who cross from the Home Counties into London.
Exactly this. Ever since High Speed 1 started domestic services in 2009, getting from Ashford to Zone 1 is a no-brainer - everyone takes the train, which tends to be absolutely rammed full on weekends, especially around match times. But getting to outer London suburbs such as Bexley, Bromley and Woolwich is frustratingly difficult. You either have to go into Central London and back out again, take the "slow" train to Bromley South and change, or try and interchange between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet, which should be simple but isn't. Don't hold your breath on that last one.
Similar issues in Greater Manchester where Metrolink and national rail services are entirely radial with zero orbital connections whatsoever. Tram from Rochdale to Bury? No chance. Train? Well, you can sort of use a heritage railway run by a misogynist if you like.
London really needs more orbital railway capacity connecting the outer lying suburbs - the Overground hasn't really addressed this weakness in the system but it has tried.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:03
Similar issues in Greater Manchester where Metrolink and national rail services are entirely radial with zero orbital connections whatsoever.
I'd say mostly true rather than entirely, the Didsbury tram route is a small chunk of a radial one, and would be more so if it ever gets through to Stockport (there were plans for that once, are there any more?)
A tram circular line sounds like a nice idea (I've not remotely considered where that lies on the plausible to pie-in-the-sky nonsense scale though).
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:03
London really needs more orbital railway capacity connecting the outer lying suburbs - the Overground hasn't really addressed this weakness in the system but it has tried.
There is a circular Overground route possible using the West London Line, North London Line and East London Line, two or three changes being involved. But do they serve "outer lying suburbs"? They're outside zone 1, but not that far outside. The GOBLIN goes further out but is just a single arm rather than a circle. There's the Romford-Upminster shuttle via Emerson Park, of course ... a true orbital connecting the outer lying suburbs would connect Harrow with Edgware with Barnet with Cockfosters etc; would there be the demand for such a service?
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The big problem with these "orbital" routes is they cost a lot to build, but the traffic levels are never sufficient to pay for the infrastructure. Even doing "joining-up" where possible, to minimise new infrastructure doesn't usually make economic sense either.
Nevermind railways; even orbital buses would be an improvement in Leeds.
If the city were a clock, we live around 9. My partner works at 7. The only reliable public transport option would be for her to get a bus from 9 to the main bus station - just east of centre - and get another bus out to 7. Then do the reverse to get home.
All of this would take about 90 minutes each way. I can drive her there and back in just 15 on a clear run, or 30 when it's busy.
And it's not like she works in some obscure location; it's a major shopping centre!
EDITED - typos
Last edited by Owain on Thu Sep 14, 2023 14:22, edited 1 time in total.
WHBM wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 14:16
[Correct. Those well away from London tend to consider "Going to London" is inside Zone 1, for which rail is most convenient. But there are very many lesser trips across the boundary for which public transport is useless. This is really something I would have hoped the DfT would have taken a hand in, the Mayor is concerned entirely with those inside his electoral boundaries, I don't think I have seen one sentence from him and his team about those who cross from the Home Counties into London.
Exactly this. Ever since High Speed 1 started domestic services in 2009, getting from Ashford to Zone 1 is a no-brainer - everyone takes the train, which tends to be absolutely rammed full on weekends, especially around match times. But getting to outer London suburbs such as Bexley, Bromley and Woolwich is frustratingly difficult. You either have to go into Central London and back out again, take the "slow" train to Bromley South and change, or try and interchange between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet, which should be simple but isn't. Don't hold your breath on that last one.
Similar issues in Greater Manchester where Metrolink and national rail services are entirely radial with zero orbital connections whatsoever. Tram from Rochdale to Bury? No chance. Train? Well, you can sort of use a heritage railway run by a misogynist if you like.
Or just jump on a 471 bus outside Rochdale rail station for Bury (or stay on until Bolton if you want), every 12 mins during the day and no misogyny required!
The bus services between the outlying towns in Greater Manchester actually remain fairly good in most cases, although nobody would be more delighted than me to see them replaced (well, at least supplemented) by trams. I would however concede that some orbital routes around the fringes of Manchester itself are nowhere near as good as they used to be. Conversely, new orbital links have appeared elsewhere, to some extent driven by the Trafford Centre.
Owain wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 23:31
Nevermind railways; even orbital buses would be an improvement in Leeds.
If the city were a clock, we live around 9. My partner works at 7. The only reliable public transport option would be for her to get a bus from 9 to the main bus station - just east of centre - and get another bus out to 7. Then do the reverse to get home.
All of this would take about 90 minutes each way. I can drive her then and back in just 15 on a clear run, or 30 when it's buy.
And it's not like she works in some obscure location; it's a major shopping centre!
A fairer criticism, for sure. I'm assuming I can guess the shopping centre in question, but there really is nothing much on the map between 9 and 7 that would make running a bus worthwhile or a even a road layout that makes for an obvious major bus route. IMO the buses in Leeds have always been a mess, even before deregulation, but the lack of many large district centres within the city (compared with say Manchester) is I believe one reason why orbital services have always been rather thin on the ground there.
fras wrote: ↑Wed Sep 13, 2023 21:57
The big problem with these "orbital" routes is they cost a lot to build, but the traffic levels are never sufficient to pay for the infrastructure. Even doing "joining-up" where possible, to minimise new infrastructure doesn't usually make economic sense either.
Hard to say really when not that many (any?) have been built. Orbital roads seem to get overloaded with traffic, and whilst there are differences between those and public transport are they really that different (although in the M60's case it's also taking some through traffic bypassing Manchester)?
