Why does the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
The number changes from M6 to A74(M) at the J45 divergence; legal responsibility changes at the border; I'm not sure which of these two places is the changeover point for practical maintenance. Probably at the border, because of the DBFO contract. The kilometre posts count from London as far as Johnstonebridge (J16), 40km north of the border. The number changes to M74 at J13, and the standard changes to D2M where phase 3 meets phase 2 at J12.
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
If I remember correctly, when the first southerly section of the A74(M) (Kirkpatrick Fleming to Guards Mill) was first built, it initially had kilometre posts numbered from its south end at Guards Mill (what is now J45). It probably had no junction numbers then but I'm not sure on that point. Later, other southerly sections further north had kilometre posts numbered from London. The anomalous section was changed as completion from Glasgow to Guards Mill was approaching, circa 1998-9.
Sadly, I can't remember at what date junction numbers first appeared on a southerly section. Probably when Lockerbie was re-bypassed.
M74 and A74(M) History
From the SABRE Wiki: M74 and A74(M) History :
The M74 and A74(M) are motorways in southern Scotland, the latter being a southward continuation of the former. Considered together, they run from Glasgow to a point just south of the English border near Gretna, where they meet the M6. They form the only substantially-D3M long-distance rural motorway in Scotland. (The A74(M) is D3M throughout; the M74 is a mixture of D2M and D3M, with some sections near Glasgow widened to D4M in 2017.)
To restate
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
As documented in the file MT 39/246, mentioned by Steven, in 1934 the Scottish Ministry of Transport asked the MOT if it would be a good idea to renumber the A74 and A82 (which originally met at a crossroads with the A8 in Glasgow City Centre) so the A6 would end in Inverness. The MOT said no.
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Steven wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:18 I didn't say it was a good idea in this case, just that it fits exactly the original methodology that fell into general disuse in the mid-1970s. See the A48(M) Morriston Bypass and the A8(M) Renfrew Bypass (although both opened with the full motorway number) for other examples of this type where both M4 and M8 existed elsewhere at the time.
I could never see the logic of using A48(M) for the Morriston Bypass and then opening another isolated section further west (J44-46) as the M4
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
J44-46 is the Morriston bypass. You're thinking of the older A48(M) Port Talbot bypass, now J39 to the end of the J41 spur at Baglan.IAN wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 16:28Steven wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:18 I didn't say it was a good idea in this case, just that it fits exactly the original methodology that fell into general disuse in the mid-1970s. See the A48(M) Morriston Bypass and the A8(M) Renfrew Bypass (although both opened with the full motorway number) for other examples of this type where both M4 and M8 existed elsewhere at the time.
I could never see the logic of using A48(M) for the Morriston Bypass and then opening another isolated section further west (J44-46) as the M4
Simon
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
It isn't just the M74/A74(M) that is a mess. The A3 has a similar mess. I have identified three sets of kilometre markers on what is not a very long piece of road. Firstly, there are kilometre distances stenciled onto bridges and the like. They appear to have a point near London Bridge as their origin (probably the junction of King William Street and Cannon Street). The second which appears on location marker posts is on the section that passed through the Hindhead tunnel. That sequence has its origin at the Surrey border, close to the Hook underpass and increases travelling out of London. The third sequence which also appears on location marker posts has its origin where the A3(M) joins the M27 and increases as one travels towards London. When the Hindhead Tunnel was built, it used the sequence travelling out of London and the sequence changes where the new road leading to the Hindhead Tunnel meets the existing road.
I won't mention the A1(M) location markers - describing that is probably worth a PhD.
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
It is the only major border crossing that doesn't have the space to build them.fras wrote:Actually, the M6 stopped north of Carlisle and there was the ghastly A74 dual-carriageway connecting M6 and M74. This is called the "Cumberland Gap" in the Wiki entry for the M6, and wasn't replaced until 2008Duncan macknight wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 22:51 It’s a rather long and complex tale so here’s a brief overview. The A74 Glasgow Carlisle road was upgraded to a dual carriageway in the 1950s and 1960s. This was completed in May 1973 with Gretna Bypass opening. The M6 from England simply connected into it (mid 1960s).
Through the 1970s there was calls for the Glasgow section of M74 to be extended all the way to the M6 at Carlisle. An extension did occur in 1986/87 taking the M74 to J12. In 1987 the decision was taken to overhaul the A74 dual carriageway to full Motorway, mostly due to its age and increasing traffic flows. This was built rather quickly from J12 to Gretna Green where it stopped short of M6 J44 by several miles (See Cumberland Gap for more).
The issue of Numbering goes back to the 1920s/1930s road renumbering where England was Given Numbers 1-6 and Scotland Given 7-9.
The M6 was a Bypass of the A6 Trunk road so it was called M6.
The Glasgow M74 was a Bypass Of the A74 so it was called M74. The A74(M) issue was basically a temporary Number while the Motorway was being built in the 1990s. It was interned the M6 WOULD extend all the way to J14, where the M74 goes to Glasgow and A702 Meanders it’s way towards Edinburgh. This was intended to be bypassed by a Motorway (M702??) but these plans were shelved in the late 1990s.
Why it’s not been extended or changed since then is that there is very little interest in changing route numbers and theses plans of the M6 Scotland extension have been dropped and never picked up again....
I suppose the Scottish government are looking for a site for a border post now. (only joking) !
The A1 and A68 have parking areas that could be repurposed.
The A7 well just as in Gretna the toll House is still there (and there is fields to cpo)
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Otherwise it would have made more sense to have the A6 follow the A74 route to Glasgow to give 2 continuous roads from London to Scotland, one to Edinburgh and one to Glasgow, even if it would be out of zone. Then any upgrades on the Scottish side would have become M6 or A6(M) anyway
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Before the A1 got a number it was the Great North Road between the capital cities of London and Edinburgh. The A6 was a not a single route in the same way as it meandered across the Midlands. I doubt many drivers drove from London to Glasgow that way. I would have been heading up either the A5/A34 towards Manchester or the A1/A66 to Penrith. In the 1930's there was a proposal to extend the A6 to Inverness via the A7 to Kingstown, the A74 into Glasgow, then along the A82 to to Inverness. The problem was the A74 was not a great road especially at the northern end.Scratchwood wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 19:00 Leaving aside Motorway numbering, presumably because of the road zoning rules, we have the curio that the A6 only goes to Carlisle, when the A1 crosses the border into Edinburgh?
Otherwise it would have made more sense to have the A6 follow the A74 route to Glasgow to give 2 continuous roads from London to Scotland, one to Edinburgh and one to Glasgow, even if it would be out of zone. Then any upgrades on the Scottish side would have become M6 or A6(M) anyway
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
A6 = London to CarlisleScratchwood wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 19:00 we have the curio that the A6 only goes to Carlisle, when the A1 crosses the border into Edinburgh?
A7 = Carlisle to Edinburgh
A74 = Carlisle to Glasgow (spurring off the A7)
IMHO, for consistency, it would have made sense for the A7 to have beeb an extension of the A6 (through to Edinburgh) and then the A7 routing to Glasgow... but that stuffs the zoning in Scotland
But it really makes no sense for the continuous Felixstowe to Glasgow road to have so many identities...
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
That is the way it actually is. The A6 ends in Carlisle at the end of Botchergate close to the castle. From there you follow the sign for the A7 and the road takes you over the Eden and on to Edinburgh, the A74 branched off the A7 at Kingstown.Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 08:43
A6 = London to Carlisle
A7 = Carlisle to Edinburgh
A74 = Carlisle to Glasgow (spurring off the A7)
IMHO, for consistency, it would have made sense for the A7 to have beeb an extension of the A6 (through to Edinburgh) and then the A7 routing to Glasgow... but that stuffs the zoning in Scotland
But it really makes no sense for the continuous Felixstowe to Glasgow road to have so many identities...
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
It's a legacy thing. In 1922, Felixtowe wasn't a major port, as far as I know, and there was barely a case for a single road number from Felixstowe to anywhere west of Ipswich. It now has a single route number into the heart of the motorway network (A14). The illogical thing now is the three different motorway numbers, and actually the only one that really shouldn't be there is the A74(M). But as this discussion explains, it has arisen out of changing plans over many decades.Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 08:43 But it really makes no sense for the continuous Felixstowe to Glasgow road to have so many identities...
Simon
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Oh Cripes, only noticed this now!Steven wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 08:21This isn't the case at all. Motorway numbering in England and Wales doesn't work this way - it's only true (mostly) in Scotland.Duncan macknight wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 22:51 The M6 was a Bypass of the A6 Trunk road so it was called M6.
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
It's ridiculous that a key national motorway, the longest in the UK which links two nations, has such an aborted numbering scheme.
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?
Eventually we will probably see A74(M) signs slowly replaced with M74 ones as they are effectively now the same road and have been for over a decade, but as long as the SNP are in charge and keep independence on the agenda, they will never agree to a continuous M6. I wouldn't be surprised if they started trying to get the A1 and other such cross-border roads renumbered past the border at some point. I don't think anyone wants to talk about what would happen with the Scottish road network if independence were to happen, namely shared roads like the A1. I suppose the one positive is that we would be able to add the final 300m or so of A74(M) on the English side to the M6, which is some sort of consolation for the complete mess of the corridor.
Welcome to the UK, where we call the M38 the M5 for some reason or another.has such an aborted numbering scheme
A303/A30 > M4-M5