Wales to introduce widespread 20mph zones

[Chris5156]

However, there is a mile of link road between the 50mph main B road and my former housing estate which should always have been at least 40mph as it had no junctions, no frontages, a stepped cycleway and plenty of SSD - that is now 20, which is even more ridiculous and poorly observed than it was at 30. A little more work needs to be done and I suspect that could be worse in some other counties.

That looks suitable for an exemption to me - it's not in any way a built up road.

[aj444]

On look, rural buses are unable to complete the route using the old times...
https://www.rhyljournal.co.uk/news/2403 ... eed-limit/

I expect others to be either quietly cut or require additional funding from the LA over the next few months.

[DB617]

On look, rural buses are unable to complete the route using the old times...
https://www.rhyljournal.co.uk/news/2403 ... eed-limit/

I expect others to be either quietly cut or require additional funding from the LA over the next few months.

Another death knell for using public transport as a vessel to make private profits. Quite a few bus companies have suddenly discovered that they were a few £ from being financially nonviable when the 20mph limits which their management and drivers disagree with came into force. It also happened to Adventure Travel in the Cardiff region and they seem to have cut the parts of the route which were most needed by an elderly and disabled subset of their few users. I have no respect for them whatsoever and their attitudes and driver policies are very similar to taxi operators - should be brought under TfW as soon as possible if the government is at all serious about modal shift outside Cardiff.

[aj444]

Another death knell for using public transport as a vessel to make private profits. Quite a few bus companies have suddenly discovered that they were a few £ from being financially nonviable when the 20mph limits which their management and drivers disagree with came into force. It also happened to Adventure Travel in the Cardiff region and they seem to have cut the parts of the route which were most needed by an elderly and disabled subset of their few users. I have no respect for them whatsoever and their attitudes and driver policies are very similar to taxi operators - should be brought under TfW as soon as possible if the government is at all serious about modal shift outside Cardiff.

It's basic maths really nothing sinister. If you have a route with two buses and it takes an hour end to end then you can have an hourly service. If it now takes an hour and two mins to do the route either part of the route must be cut, or another bus must be used (three instead of two), or you have some weird timetable with buses running at every hour and five mins - all of which mean the service overall will carry less passengers. Don't forget also that not only will it cost more for private bus companies to maintain the same that they have, but it will also cost more for councils should they have control.

With regard to public vs private debate it will be interesting to watch the finances - the franchising model costs a lot more than the existing provision. Just like everything else, we want the best provision but we (ie. the government) are not willing to be honest with the public and admit we would have to raise taxes to pay for it.

[rhyds]

Another death knell for using public transport as a vessel to make private profits. Quite a few bus companies have suddenly discovered that they were a few £ from being financially nonviable when the 20mph limits which their management and drivers disagree with came into force. It also happened to Adventure Travel in the Cardiff region and they seem to have cut the parts of the route which were most needed by an elderly and disabled subset of their few users. I have no respect for them whatsoever and their attitudes and driver policies are very similar to taxi operators - should be brought under TfW as soon as possible if the government is at all serious about modal shift outside Cardiff.

As an aside, even TrawsCymru (TfW's franchised long-distance bus operation) has had to adjust its timetables to take the 20mph speed limits in to account. A good example is my local bus service, the TrawsCymru T3, which is their Wrexham-Barmouth route.

https://traws.cymru/en/services/LLCO/T3

Previously, The T3 would go from Wrexham to Barmouth via smaller villages like Llandderfel, Llandrillo and my own village of Llanuwchllyn, where it would travel half a mile to the end of the village and turn around before resuming going down the A494.

Since November, the T3 is now two routes, the "main" T3, which sticks to the trunk road network and doesn't divert to the smaller villages and the new T3C which runs through all the small villages and (should) connect with the actual T3 services at Bala and Corwen for onward southbound/northbound travel as needed. The problem is that the new T3C services mean that in villages like Llandrillo to head southbound you first have to head northbound for half an hour to get to Corwen, then catch a southbound T3 bus.

[FosseWay]

As an aside, even TrawsCymru (TfW's franchised long-distance bus operation) has had to adjust its timetables to take the 20mph speed limits in to account. A good example is my local bus service, the TrawsCymru T3, which is their Wrexham-Barmouth route.

I can understand long-distance buses being affected by this more than local services. Buses, even long-distance, need to go through town centres and not round bypasses, so they need to use roads with 20 mph limits. But they probably only stop at the town's bus station, and they probably use the most direct route into and out of town, so for the whole of the rest of their passage through the town, the speed they drive at is governed entirely by external factors unrelated to the provision of the bus service (congestion, speed limits).

Local buses, on the other hand, stop frequently at bus stops and often take routes other than the obvious main road connection between A and B in order to increase bus coverage in residential areas. On the face of it, I'd have expected these other factors to mean that the buses' average speed in urban areas is already well below 20 mph, and that a reduction from 30 to 20 on the few stretches where 30 was possible before won't affect journey times hugely. At least this is part of the argument being used towards car drivers - that the total distance in 20 limits, combined with the fact that in urban traffic you need to stop for lights and so on anyway, will add a negligible amount to your journey time.

Something doesn't add up here. Either local bus providers are crying wolf, or the 20 limits are actually having a bigger impact on journey times (for everyone) than was anticipated or admitted. If the latter is the case, that's not necessarily a show-stopper; it depends on what the advantages are in terms of reduced accidents, less noise etc. But the authorities need to be honest about the effects - positive and negative - and need to be directly open to change in cases where journey times (especially for buses) are affected disproportionately but the claimed positives are not as great as expected.

[Bessie]

On look, rural buses are unable to complete the route using the old times...
https://www.rhyljournal.co.uk/news/2403 ... eed-limit/

I expect others to be either quietly cut or require additional funding from the LA over the next few months.

Another death knell for using public transport as a vessel to make private profits. Quite a few bus companies have suddenly discovered that they were a few £ from being financially nonviable when the 20mph limits which their management and drivers disagree with came into force. It also happened to Adventure Travel in the Cardiff region and they seem to have cut the parts of the route which were most needed by an elderly and disabled subset of their few users. I have no respect for them whatsoever and their attitudes and driver policies are very similar to taxi operators - should be brought under TfW as soon as possible if the government is at all serious about modal shift outside Cardiff.

It would be quite an achievement to get a detectable level of modal shift outside Cardiff in any case. I don’t think it has been achieved in a similar context anywhere in the developed world, but happy to be pointed to any examples.

[rhyds]

I've tried giving modal shift a go a few times, problem is that buses and trains rarely go where I want to go, when I want to go there!

[AndyB]

And that’s the problem. A bus to go where you want to go when you want to go there, especially anything resembling an out of town shopping or industrial area, is not usually commercially viable. You need a certain volume of passengers at a certain time along a definable route for that.

That’s why modal shift is necessary on the viable routes, because space needs to be made for those with no reasonable alternative to driving.

[rhyds]

And that’s the problem. A bus to go where you want to go when you want to go there, especially anything resembling an out of town shopping or industrial area, is not usually commercially viable. You need a certain volume of passengers at a certain time along a definable route for that.

That’s why modal shift is necessary on the viable routes, because space needs to be made for those with no reasonable alternative to driving.

In my case its not even specific locations, but sometimes general areas that you can't get to. For example its simply impossible to get a train from North or Mid Wales to Birmingham that arrives before midday on a Sunday. Its not even a case of being inconveniently early or needing changes, but that there are simply zero services running before 9am on a Sunday.

[AndyB]

To be fair, that’s not unusual. I think very few services run anywhere much before 9am on Sundays other than the odd commuter line and some intercity services, simply because there isn’t the demand unless a train needs to be somewhere other than where it parked up on Saturday night.

[Bessie]

To be fair, that’s not unusual. I think very few services run anywhere much before 9am on Sundays other than the odd commuter line and some intercity services, simply because there isn’t the demand unless a train needs to be somewhere other than where it parked up on Saturday night.

It is not just the limited service, it’s the lack of flexibility. What if I want to drop the kids off at grandmas before going to work? Or have the option of calling in on an elderly relative if I get a sudden call?

[rhyds]

To be fair, that’s not unusual. I think very few services run anywhere much before 9am on Sundays other than the odd commuter line and some intercity services, simply because there isn’t the demand unless a train needs to be somewhere other than where it parked up on Saturday night.

Which is a massive problem for those of us who like to do such unpopular and outlandish things as head to the NEC for an event. In fact, it makes the most sense for me to drive to Birmingham Intl railway station than to take a train there!

[AndyB]

To be fair, that’s not unusual. I think very few services run anywhere much before 9am on Sundays other than the odd commuter line and some intercity services, simply because there isn’t the demand unless a train needs to be somewhere other than where it parked up on Saturday night.

It is not just the limited service, it’s the lack of flexibility. What if I want to drop the kids off at grandmas before going to work? Or have the option of calling in on an elderly relative if I get a sudden call?

The days you have to drop the kids off at grandma’s are the days you drive unless the station’s on your way back from grandma’s. Train operators are catching on that traditional season tickets aren’t good enough and are providing the flexibility you need.

Believe me, most of the train and bus passengers will have elderly relatives and might get a sudden call. All they can do is go home and get their car, or get a family member to take them home later on. It’s stuff we’ve all had to do as part of the price of not having to drive in traffic.

[Bessie]

To be fair, that’s not unusual. I think very few services run anywhere much before 9am on Sundays other than the odd commuter line and some intercity services, simply because there isn’t the demand unless a train needs to be somewhere other than where it parked up on Saturday night.

It is not just the limited service, it’s the lack of flexibility. What if I want to drop the kids off at grandmas before going to work? Or have the option of calling in on an elderly relative if I get a sudden call?

The days you have to drop the kids off at grandma’s are the days you drive unless the station’s on your way back from grandma’s. Train operators are catching on that traditional season tickets aren’t good enough and are providing the flexibility you need.

Believe me, most of the train and bus passengers will have elderly relatives and might get a sudden call. All they can do is go home and get their car, or get a family member to take them home later on. It’s stuff we’ve all had to do as part of the price of not having to drive in traffic.

But it’s also why people want cars, get more of them when their income rises, and in consequence why public transport - outside inner urban areas and for specific inter-city routes - is at risk of long term decline.

[AndyB]

And they don't get the irony when they get stuck in traffic jams that they have helped to cause.

I'll be honest, I don't really think that the extended 20s are making a great difference to bus schedules. Is it possible that the bus companies were looking for an excuse?

[Bessie]

And they don't get the irony when they get stuck in traffic jams that they have helped to cause.

I'll be honest, I don't really think that the extended 20s are making a great difference to bus schedules. Is it possible that the bus companies were looking for an excuse?

It’s not irony. Sometimes we (not “they”) contribute to congestion, sometimes we don’t. We don’t take account of such a contribution where it occurs but we do experience the cost. Public policy should address congestion costs, but working out how to do so is difficult, as both capacity enhancements and road pricing seem generally unacceptable. However we won’t get anywhere without recognising the enormous private and social benefits that cars provide (not denying the obvious downsides).

In respect of excuses, I’m sure bus companies are tempted. But on the other hand, surely they’d be very wary of offending a major benefactor?

[rhyds]

And they don't get the irony when they get stuck in traffic jams that they have helped to cause.

I'll be honest, I don't really think that the extended 20s are making a great difference to bus schedules. Is it possible that the bus companies were looking for an excuse?

It depends where you're running the bus.

Central Cardiff? Probably not (general traffic speed isn't going to be high)

Suburban Cardiff/Valleys/Rural Areas: Probably is (traffic congestion is less of an issue here).

[RichardA35]

And they don't get the irony when they get stuck in traffic jams that they have helped to cause.

I'll be honest, I don't really think that the extended 20s are making a great difference to bus schedules. Is it possible that the bus companies were looking for an excuse?

It depends where you're running the bus.

Central Cardiff? Probably not (general traffic speed isn't going to be high)

Suburban Cardiff/Valleys/Rural Areas: Probably is (traffic congestion is less of an issue here).

The very act of stopping to pick up or set down passengers is likely to be the key determinant of transit time through a typical village of say 1 mile long. Spending an extra minute helping a parent with young children or an OAP to alight or board will have far more effect on overall time than any 20mph limit in a rural setting

[AndyB]

And they don't get the irony when they get stuck in traffic jams that they have helped to cause.

I'll be honest, I don't really think that the extended 20s are making a great difference to bus schedules. Is it possible that the bus companies were looking for an excuse?

It’s not irony. Sometimes we (not “they”) contribute to congestion, sometimes we don’t. We don’t take account of such a contribution where it occurs but we do experience the cost. Public policy should address congestion costs, but working out how to do so is difficult, as both capacity enhancements and road pricing seem generally unacceptable. However we won’t get anywhere without recognising the enormous private and social benefits that cars provide (not denying the obvious downsides).

No, I think it is ironic. Exercising the "freedom" to drive comes at a cost to those who don't have the freedom to use public transport or work from home, and thus the economy and ultimately the cost comes back on those causing the congestion because the congestion increases the cost of doing business and therefore prices.

Of course cars provide enormous private and social benefits, and that's why most people have cars - my wife and I need to go opposite directions at least once a week to places which are a great deal less than convenient by public transport (before lockdown we were getting in our cars every day at the same time as each other because public transport was not suitable for either of us to get to work) - but there's an issue of societal responsibility which gets lost behind the "freedom".