A57(M) speed limit to be reduced to 30 mph

[fras]

Is there even any accommodation in the regulations for literally closing an entire carriageway, especially in a width restricted area? I wonder if there was any wiggle room in the project to actually avoid closing the entire carriageway at once, but they took the liberty anyway for the purpose of speed or excess safety margin.

I'd be astonished if there wasn't. Closure of an entire carriageway, and operation in contraflow, has been a standard way of setting up roadworks on motorways for about 50 years.

Are you sure? I thought contraflows were a late 2010s Highways England invention to speed up smart motorway construction, because that's what they were telling everyone when they shoved them on the M62 and M6 a few years ago

Blimey, no ! Contraflows have been around for decades, certainly as far back as when I was riding motorbikes, and that ceased in 1981 when I got married. As I recall, they actually were at one time frowned upon, (why I don't know), but have reappeared in recent years, I suppose because the lack of capacity without them being used is unacceptable with today's traffic levels. There is one in use on the M56 where the "digital highway" (aka SMART motorway) works are in progress. They were in use on the M6 SMART works, but no longer, as that is mostly now complete.

[owen b]

I'd be astonished if there wasn't. Closure of an entire carriageway, and operation in contraflow, has been a standard way of setting up roadworks on motorways for about 50 years.

Are you sure? I thought contraflows were a late 2010s Highways England invention to speed up smart motorway construction, because that's what they were telling everyone when they shoved them on the M62 and M6 a few years ago

Blimey, no ! Contraflows have been around for decades, certainly as far back as when I was riding motorbikes, and that ceased in 1981 when I got married. As I recall, they actually were at one time frowned upon, (why I don't know), but have reappeared in recent years, I suppose because the lack of capacity without them being used is unacceptable with today's traffic levels. There is one in use on the M56 where the "digital highway" (aka SMART motorway) works are in progress. They were in use on the M6 SMART works, but no longer, as that is mostly now complete.

I remember contraflows on the A1 in Yorkshire when I was a kid in the 70s, with the fairly narrow tightly angled and badly cambered crossovers, and as a teenager in the 80s I used to get driven up and down the A1 a lot and contraflows seemed to be the default way of doing significant roadworks. Looking back the use of often not very closely spaced traffic cones to separate the traffic flows seems very rudimentary compared to the continuous solid barriers that are used these days. There would often be long queues where two lanes reduced to one.

[mikehindsonevans]

Are you sure? I thought contraflows were a late 2010s Highways England invention to speed up smart motorway construction, because that's what they were telling everyone when they shoved them on the M62 and M6 a few years ago

Oh definitely not. I remember early contraflow with just cones separating the flows on motorways back in the 1980s.

Can anyone help give more accuracy on when contraflow first appeared, using just cones on motorways?

I thought contraflows were more of an old fashioned TM method, which is rarely found used nowadays. There was even a warning signs to show use of contraflow (end of, and maybe start of) which is no longer prescribed, as well as motorways in the 70s and maybe into the 80s that were built with crossover points before they were all closed due to illegal u-turning resulting in many fatalities - according to "Trunk Roads, England. Into the 1990s"

The "illegal u-turn" incident which sticks on my mind was near Heston services when a turning lorry took out a coach.

Prior to that, the M27 behind Fareham (j11) was a regular location for Hampshire Plod traffic vehicles to quickly change direction if they needed to get back down to Pompey on a shout.

Lights flashing, through gap in central reservation, straight across onto opposing hard shoulder then rev the knkrs off the engine and get back up to speed. Back then, 20 vehicles in sight on the entire Wallington stretch was a busy day!

[Bryn666]

I like how everyone has missed the sarcasm in my comment about how HE claimed they invented the contraflow - which was their glossy PDF department ignoring their existence for at least 40 years prior to their setting up in 2015.

There are excellent books about motorway management as published by the Motorway Archive Trust which go into great detail about the history of roadworks.

[Big L]

I like how everyone has missed the sarcasm...

Not everyone !

[DB617]

Contraflows do still seem to be in common use for bridge repairs. Wales' weirdly hard to identify highways agency has been making on and off uses of contraflows and full closures to repair structures at M4 J28 and J32, the former with an extremely ugly three-mile lead in of closed hard shoulder all the way back to J26. What an opportune moment for Wales to have scrapped its only controlled motorway (which used to protect this section)...

[the cheesecake man]

I like how everyone has missed the sarcasm...

Not everyone !

A little misinterpretaion helps make the discussion more interesting.

[Roadiecambs]

My view on this is that, while it's obviously silly, it doesn't seem quite as grievous as some of the other urban limit cuts recently. Having driven both the Mancunian Way (A57(M)) and the Westway (A40) in the last 6 months, I can say that the A40 feels of significantly higher quality with more forgiving curves, better vertical alignment and more widely spaced junctions. If the Westway only warrants 30mph these days (I believe due to structural issues), then just be thankful they haven't reduced Mancunian Way to 20!

In all seriousness, without SPECS in force, there will be almost zero compliance. I know I felt quite vulnerable trying to stick to 30mph on the Westway recently, with other road users generally doing 40-50.

[owen b]

I like how everyone has missed the sarcasm in my comment about how HE claimed they invented the contraflow - which was their glossy PDF department ignoring their existence for at least 40 years prior to their setting up in 2015.

There are excellent books about motorway management as published by the Motorway Archive Trust which go into great detail about the history of roadworks.

I didn't miss the sarcasm. Your comment prompted me to post a brief recollection about old school contraflows, that's all.

[Big L]

I like how everyone has missed the sarcasm...

Not everyone !

A little misinterpretaion helps make the discussion more interesting.

How dare you call me fat. I demand an apology.

[Bryn666]

The signs that have been installed are going to be unenforceable due to the sheer state of them - temporary 50 signs with the 5 badly covered over with a 3, and mounted underneath badly sprayed out permanent 50 signs.

It very much smacks of a council caught with its pants down because they failed to maintain a crash barrier in the underpass at the western end the way it was announced and implemented - someone has threatened them with a court action I imagine.

The damage started in 2017 and got progressively worse: https://goo.gl/maps/CLf5akQeAhc4WB3D7 to https://goo.gl/maps/PuDktcSZPe4DPX6HA

I'd like to see the correlation between the installation of these telescreens (https://goo.gl/maps/r4QdQNY8jbjhsu1M7) in 2018 and the rise in collisions since 2018. Bigger screens were installed in 2012 in the underpass and I bet these have contributed to collisions too as they are too bright and ridiculously distracting with animations.

Still, earning £££ from adverts seems to trump road safety in Manchester as the many new illuminated video billboards blocking footways installed last year suggest.

[Chris5156]

Still, earning £££ from adverts seems to trump road safety in Manchester as the many new illuminated video billboards blocking footways installed last year suggest.

Similarly in London. The screens alongside the Hammersmith Flyover are dazzling, and these ones over the West Cross Route are a pile-up waiting to happen. They're so bright that at night I have to pull down the sun visor so I can still see the road.

[Chris Bertram]

Still, earning £££ from adverts seems to trump road safety in Manchester as the many new illuminated video billboards blocking footways installed last year suggest.

Similarly in London. The screens alongside the Hammersmith Flyover are dazzling, and these ones over the West Cross Route are a pile-up waiting to happen. They're so bright that at night I have to pull down the sun visor so I can still see the road.

Cf. also the M4 elevated section.

[The Deuce]

The 18 month temporary 30mph speed limit expired in mid august. Does anyone know if it has been made permanent or perhaps extend again? I cannot see anything on the Manchester council website

[Bryn666]

The 18 month temporary 30mph speed limit expired in mid august. Does anyone know if it has been made permanent or perhaps extend again? I cannot see anything on the Manchester council website

It's still there with incorrect signage, and there is another run of damage to the same barrier length that sparked this debacle.

[Graham]

I missed this thread the first time round, but the discussion re the history of contraflow reminds me that I once knew someone who claimed to have invented it. Sadly he died in 1996 (at the age of 59), so I haven't been able to discuss it further with him since I joined SABRE.

His main job was as a senior civil servant in the Ministry of Transport, and he wasn't the type of person who would have made the claim lightly.

[Bryn666]

The 18 month temporary 30mph speed limit expired in mid august. Does anyone know if it has been made permanent or perhaps extend again? I cannot see anything on the Manchester council website

It's still there with incorrect signage, and there is another run of damage to the same barrier length that sparked this debacle.

The speed limit signage is now permanent, meaning this is officially the lowest speed limit on a UK motorway. There are no repeaters because of the high mast lighting and as expected compliance is nil.

It should've been a 40, as it was when first opened in 1967.

[Chris5156]

The speed limit signage is now permanent, meaning this is officially the lowest speed limit on a UK motorway. There are no repeaters because of the high mast lighting and as expected compliance is nil.

Just to clarify - the lack of repeaters is a mistake, isn’t it? The limit on a motorway won’t default to 30 because the rules about lighting don’t apply.

Interestingly it also won’t default to 70, because the legislation that establishes the 70mph motorway limit specifically lists the A57(M) as an exception and gives it a separate 50 limit.

[NICK 647063]

The speed limit signage is now permanent, meaning this is officially the lowest speed limit on a UK motorway. There are no repeaters because of the high mast lighting and as expected compliance is nil.

Just to clarify - the lack of repeaters is a mistake, isn’t it? The limit on a motorway won’t default to 30 because the rules about lighting don’t apply.

Interestingly it also won’t default to 70, because the legislation that establishes the 70mph motorway limit specifically lists the A57(M) as an exception and gives it a separate 50 limit.

The A64(M) had major roadworks in Leeds during Covid for the full replacement of the Regent Street Flyover, the temporary limit of 30 covered a 2 mile stretch of the A64 York Road and A64(M), at the start it was covered with repeater signage and after many accidents due to speed, new speed cameras were added (not average speed), after thousands of fines were appealed due to the repeater signage existing within a street lit area, the whole section of works then had an expert come and advise on signage, basically all repeaters were removed, all that was allowed was 1 sign each way with a 30 and camera symbol prior to both cameras….
It’s back to 40 now but the extra cameras were allowed to remain, I’m just thankful Leeds still has the common sense to keep sensible speed limits 30 would be horrendous permanently.

Manchester sadly seems to be making it a habit with this and Princess Road all 30!

[Steven]

The speed limit signage is now permanent, meaning this is officially the lowest speed limit on a UK motorway. There are no repeaters because of the high mast lighting and as expected compliance is nil.

Just to clarify - the lack of repeaters is a mistake, isn’t it? The limit on a motorway won’t default to 30 because the rules about lighting don’t apply.

Interestingly it also won’t default to 70, because the legislation that establishes the 70mph motorway limit specifically lists the A57(M) as an exception and gives it a separate 50 limit.

1. That length of motorway known as Mancunian Way A57(M) in the City and County Borough of Manchester which extends from its junction with Chester Road Roundabout in a general north easterly direction to its junction with Downing Street Roundabout, a distance of approximately 2010 yards.

That's interesting - I wonder whether the SI overrides a Speed Limit Order (or whatever Manchester CC has used)? The SI does state that it has the power of an Act as well, so it's kind of a super-SI.

Though let's not mention that neither the Downing Street Roundabout nor Manchester County Borough now exist...