Dualling the A1237

[Achmelvic]

Will dualling do much good if it still stops for the same number of roundabouts?

I guess more there’ll be space for queuing

[KeithW]

I think this is phase 2 of scheme that has already been approved and that the main task is actually improving the existing roundabouts

Looking at the published scheme pages for phase 1 they are talking about the section between the A64 junction at Askham Bryan clockwise to the Hopgrove Roundabout The main improvements are to the roundabouts with the first phase involving the Wetherby Road and Monks Cross roundabouts. The other roundabouts were expected to be improved but no timeline had been announced

https://www.york.gov.uk/info/20113/road ... _ring_road

This is definitely needed as they are frequently long queues at both junctions.

The scheme does mention a longer term aim of dualling the ring road but again there is no time line.

[DavidBrown]

The thing is, particularly the A19 roundabout at Rawcliffe Bar has already been "improved" countless times over the past 25 years - what's so good about this latest "improvement" that'll solve the congestion problems? You almost need two A1237's really - one to serve all the local roundabouts as is and another more like the A64 part of the ring road with literally only one or two good grade separated junctions.

[NICK 647063]

I think this is phase 2 of scheme that has already been approved and that the main task is actually improving the existing roundabouts

Looking at the published scheme pages for phase 1 they are talking about the section between the A64 junction at Askham Bryan clockwise to the Hopgrove Roundabout The main improvements are to the roundabouts with the first phase involving the Wetherby Road and Monks Cross roundabouts. The other roundabouts were expected to be improved but no timeline had been announced

https://www.york.gov.uk/info/20113/road ... _ring_road

This is definitely needed as they are frequently long queues at both junctions.

The scheme does mention a longer term aim of dualling the ring road but again there is no time line.

No I’m fully aware of the roundabout improvements which are already ongoing at the B1224 then moving to monks cross then all the other roundabouts over the next few years!

What I’m talking about is this https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/169530 ... ad-to-a19/ it’s basically a new scheme which was announced as part of the major road safety network.

[Rillington]

Will dualling do much good if it still stops for the same number of roundabouts?

No.

If the road is to be dualled, and it should be, it needs to be a new parallel road with GSJs at the major junctions. The current road, and its roundabouts, should be retained as a local access route.

[Stevie D]

Will dualling do much good if it still stops for the same number of roundabouts?

Unlikely. The roundabouts are already in the process of being upgraded to allow 2 lanes through each way on the A1237 (A59 and A19 already in place, B1224 being rebuilt at the moment, Monks Cross next on the list). I try to avoid the road at busy times if at all possible, so I don't know exactly what goes on, but it's hard to see that the problems are to do with the connecting roads rather than the roundabouts themselves. It's just likely to put more pressure on the roundabouts but I can't see it relieving the congestion.

[NICK 647063]

The dualling is to add capacity but it will always be a problem Road with the roundabouts, I must admit the wider roundabouts allow more through flow, the proposed partial dualling is just a start I hope although it’s not going to be built on the busiest section, looking at 2017 AADT the A19 to A59 section now carries 37,000 VPD which is well over capacity for a S2 A road.

[Euan]

Most of the roundabouts will probably have to be removed for a new dual carriageway to be effective, although the A19 and A59 junctions could remain roundabouts if the A1237 between them was upgraded to D3. Alternatively, if the A19 and A59 junctions were to become grade-separated then create a D3 road by adding an extra lane to each carriageway between these two junctions.

[Bryn666]

Sacrilege to suggest this but a D2 A1237 will work better with signal junctions...

I can't ever see the money existing for flyovers and underpasses given the A64 is seen as the HQ bypass.

[NICK 647063]

I’m on the A1237 most days and the enlarged roundabouts don’t seem a big issue now as before when only one lane existed they were the weak link, the queues form due to the S2 which still exists between them, but then that would likely change once it’s upgraded to D2 the roundabouts become the weak link.....

As this is a distributor road and not the through route as the A64 performs that function a close look at removing some junctions and providing a couple of GSJ would be an idea, personally I would leave the roundabouts at both the A19 and A59 as you get high turning movements and they mostly function apart from the shocking tight layout at the A59 that needs looking at, I Would provide GSJ’s definitely at Haxby as this has a high through flow on both routes so it would keep the York to Haxby flow separate to the A1237 through flow, Clifton Moor needs looking at the current roundabout has a ridiculous situation where traffic wishing to get from the west side near B&Q to the east near Tesco must do a loop of the A1237 roundabout causing queues.

To be fair it’s all a bit dream land really what we will likely end up with is D2 and roundabouts.

[Rillington]

For lorries travelling from the Humber port to the north east the A1237 is definitely a through route which is why I any dualled sections should not have roundabouts every mile or so.

[NICK 647063]

For lorries travelling from the Humber port to the north east the A1237 is definitely a through route which is why I any dualled sections should not have roundabouts every mile or s

A few may take that route but most HGV drivers I know use the M62 and A1(M) as to avoid the A1237 of course if it’s dualled it may attract more HGV’s which would also impact the A1079 and A19.

[Rillington]

A lot of HGVs travel along the A1079 and presumably when they get to the A64 they bypass York to the east and north, via all those roundabouts, rather than going west and then north to get to the A19. Mileage-wise, it's a lot shorter when compared to the M62 and A1M.

[NICK 647063]

I was just having a look online and noticed that this dualling scheme was only first announced late last year as dualling the A1237 from the A19 to A64 Hopgrove but already seems to be moving on at a pace, looking at the documents from a York council meeting it would appear the cost of the dualling is £28 million which for such a long section seems incredible value for money, basically they stated the current roundabout upgrades which are ongoing are already funded at £32 million, these upgrades easily allow the dual carriageway to be slotted in between for £28 million meaning the full scheme value would be £60 million but as I say only £28 million is needed, what amazed me more was the fact it stated clearance works could start onsite late this year with the main construction starting in 2020, it also stated that if it could be speeded up it would save even more money as the current roundabout upgrades would not need tapers adding which would only be temporary until dualling....

What’s impressive is this scheme was only first mentioned late last year but could be onsite within a year of first being announced, which when you look at the A64 dualling project which is slow progress is pretty amazing although I do understand the A64 scheme is of a higher standard and involves many bridges.

[Euan]

I was just having a look online and noticed that this dualling scheme was only first announced late last year as dualling the A1237 from the A19 to A64 Hopgrove but already seems to be moving on at a pace, looking at the documents from a York council meeting it would appear the cost of the dualling is £28 million which for such a long section seems incredible value for money, basically they stated the current roundabout upgrades which are ongoing are already funded at £32 million, these upgrades easily allow the dual carriageway to be slotted in between for £28 million meaning the full scheme value would be £60 million but as I say only £28 million is needed, what amazed me more was the fact it stated clearance works could start onsite late this year with the main construction starting in 2020, it also stated that if it could be speeded up it would save even more money as the current roundabout upgrades would not need tapers adding which would only be temporary until dualling....

What’s impressive is this scheme was only first mentioned late last year but could be onsite within a year of first being announced, which when you look at the A64 dualling project which is slow progress is pretty amazing although I do understand the A64 scheme is of a higher standard and involves many bridges.

That is very impressive indeed, typically you might expect the time period between announcement and completion to be at least three years, maybe even five years.

[Berk]

Sacrilege to suggest this but a D2 A1237 will work better with signal junctions...

What would be the point of spending the money on dualling if you’re going to propose capacity-sapping signals on every roundabout??

You may be right in saying there isn’t the budget for GSJ’s, but adding signals would send us right back to square one.

[ScottB5411]

Don't forget they need to be full time signals too, stuck on rush hour mode 24/7 so that people who drive at night get held up for no reason at all....

[Bryn666]

Rather than getting knickers in a twist go back and notice that I said signal junctions not signal roundabouts.

If you think a local authority has a spare billion quid to fully GSJ a road like the A1237 then enjoy your dream. Those of us who deal in realities will accept a trade off.

[jackal]

Rather than getting knickers in a twist go back and notice that I said signal junctions not signal roundabouts.

If you think a local authority has a spare billion quid to fully GSJ a road like the A1237 then enjoy your dream. Those of us who deal in realities will accept a trade off.

If we're talking realism, how likely is it that a local authority is going to demolish recently improved roundabouts and replace them with a non-roundabout signalized junction? This would in fact jeopardise the recent central government funding for the dualling scheme, which links in with the existing and ongoing junction improvements.

Not to mention the fact that it's very dubious that signalization would actually be an improvement. As the recent HE report showed, signalization tends to increase overall journey times, and the negative effects on offpeak journeys are still there when the signalized junction isn't a roundabout. There are good reasons why the rest of the world is moving to roundabouts rather than signals.

The improvement to be made to a roundabout (short of a GSJ) is not signalization. Rather approaches, circulation and exits can be widened, the radius increased, and left turn filters added. The improvements already made to the A19 and A59 roundabouts are not far off what they should be. I'd prefer proper filters but they've still done pretty well with limited resources and site constraints:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.98685 ... a=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.97259 ... a=!3m1!1e3

It's pleasing to see that the further improvements at Clifton Moor, Wigginton Road, Monks Cross and Wetherby Road (which is already complete but not yet on Google Maps) are along similar lines, with nary a signal in sight:

https://www.york.gov.uk/downloads/file/ ... ts_leaflet
https://www.york.gov.uk/YORRMonksCross
https://democracy.york.gov.uk/documents ... eaflet.pdf

My main complaint is with the extra arm at Clifton Moor, but I suppose congestion-inducing 'developments' are inevitable with such a scheme, and it's preferable to an additional junction.

[Bryn666]

The rest of the world is actually moving towards compact roundabouts for small junctions and high capacity signal arrangements like continuous flow for at grade and diverging diamonds for major grade separated junctions.

As usual Britain thinks it is better and stubbornly sticks to designs that were obsolescent twenty years ago.