Pre-Hixon Disaster Signage.

[KeithW]

And the other European countries that use the steam engines? Basically our mental image of 'train' is a steam train unless expressed differently.

So just how many other European nations still use steam trains ?

Even in the late 1950's most western european nations had ditched steam but BR was still building new steam locomotives, many ended up going straight into storage/museums if they were lucky.

The last I heard in europe outside the UK there was just one scheduled steam service left and that was in Poland on what is basically a heritage railway.

For the record just in case you think I have an aversion for steam here is a photo I took in Colorado on the Cumbres and Toltec line in 2000.

[Bryn666]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

It's the picket fence that causes the problem.

[Chris Bertram]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

It's the picket fence that causes the problem.

So how do you indicate a level-crossing gate clearly and unambiguously? They vary from traditional wicket gates to lifting barriers and all kinds of variations on a theme.

[Bryn666]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

It's the picket fence that causes the problem.

So how do you indicate a level-crossing gate clearly and unambiguously? They vary from traditional wicket gates to lifting barriers and all kinds of variations on a theme.

Several examples further back - where there are signals controlling crossings you sign the wig-wags as the hazard (like you would for traffic lights) and use a steam train symbol on a supplementary plate. I've re-posted it to save going back but it clearly says there is a set of signals ahead and why.

The manually controlled gate crossings are a bit of a different beast, but they've never used a picket suburbia fence, they're typically the five bar iron or steel gate with a red lamp on them (like this one in Blackburn: https://goo.gl/maps/oDfTZ2fYNpA9hB7T8

In those situations I'd be inclined to propose we use the steam train triangle and a supplementary "STOP if directed" plate.

[WHBM]

I've noticed that Ireland doesn't seem to like level crossings on classified roads, preferring bridges. (In contrast to NI where even the main road to the International airport has a level crossing across it)

Not necessarily. Co Roscommon, N61 across the Dublin to Sligo line :

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5708585 ... 384!8i8192

It does seem, like in the UK, some initial builders of the lines (in pre-motor vehicle days) favoured crossings instead of bridges more than others. There aren't many left over A-roads in the UK either.

[trickstat]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

Yes, a silhouette of a diesel or electric train could probably look quite a lot like a coach or HGV from a quick glance.

[wallmeerkat]

I've noticed that Ireland doesn't seem to like level crossings on classified roads, preferring bridges. (In contrast to NI where even the main road to the International airport has a level crossing across it)

Not necessarily. Co Roscommon, N61 across the Dublin to Sligo line :

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5708585 ... 384!8i8192

It does seem, like in the UK, some initial builders of the lines (in pre-motor vehicle days) favoured crossings instead of bridges more than others. There aren't many left over A-roads in the UK either.

Interesting sign on your example that mostly reflects what is going on - stream train representing a, well, train, on a line, crossing, and flashing lights in front https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5702084 ... 384!8i8192

Probably helps that you can fit a bit more on a new-world style diamond than a red triangle.

[AndyB]

Not sure if it is official but this small level crossing in Ireland uses both the diamond with picket fence, but also a red triangle with a steam train on

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.7904812 ... 312!8i6656 / https://www.google.com/maps/@52.7570275 ... 312!8i6656

I've noticed that Ireland doesn't seem to like level crossings on classified roads, preferring bridges. (In contrast to NI where even the main road to the International airport has a level crossing across it)

No, that's quite normal at user worked crossings down south.

[WHBM]

Interesting sign on your example that mostly reflects what is going on - stream train representing a, well, train, on a line, crossing, and flashing lights in front https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5702084 ... 384!8i8192

Probably helps that you can fit a bit more on a new-world style diamond than a red triangle.

1/4 mile back there was a warning wig-wag, which chanced to operate in front of me. Yellow lights instead of red, and both flashed together instead of alternately.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5685229 ... 384!8i8192

[Unbreakify]

Back to my question i sent a while earlier; sorry it took so long.
Here is the photo from a (i think?) documentation video from the 50-60s. This is the only screenshot i have of it, and i cant find it on reverse search.

If anyone knows, i'd be thankful.

[KeithW]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

It's the picket fence that causes the problem.

So just how many people under the age of 40 have actually seen a steam train in the flesh ? about the same number as have seen biplanes flying into an airport at a guess. Are you really suggesting large numbers of drivers would not recognises this as a level crossing ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.46969 ... 8192?hl=en

Signs are not the real thing - they are symbols but the real thing is unmistakable, wig wags and a barrier across the road does not mean go in any language.

[exiled]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

It's the picket fence that causes the problem.

So just how many people under the age of 40 have actually seen a steam train in the flesh ? about the same number as have seen biplanes flying into an airport at a guess. Are you really suggesting large numbers of drivers would not recognises this as a level crossing ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.46969 ... 8192?hl=en

Signs are not the real thing - they are symbols but the real thing is unmistakable, wig wags and a barrier across the road does not mean go in any language.

People under 40 have not read or watched Thomas The Tank Engine books and TV series? Been to preserved railways? Been to local museums? Seen the Hogwarts Express in the Harry Potter films? Steam engines are ubiquitous in our culture and in other countries' cultures and were so when the signs were introduced. We do not use biplanes for airports instead of a jet is by the time the signs came in was plane = jet, even for airports where turbo props are still used.

[Helvellyn]

The steam train pictogram is clearly a train, that's why we still use it.

It's the picket fence that causes the problem.

So just how many people under the age of 40 have actually seen a steam train in the flesh ? about the same number as have seen biplanes flying into an airport at a guess. Are you really suggesting large numbers of drivers would not recognises this as a level crossing ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.46969 ... 8192?hl=en

Signs are not the real thing - they are symbols but the real thing is unmistakable, wig wags and a barrier across the road does not mean go in any language.

SIgns are not the real thing, so they don't need to look like the real thing, they need to be an easily recognisable indication of it. A steam loco (which is very stylised on the sign anyway) does a better job of that because it's a clearer shape.

[doebag]

My granddaughter is 5 years old.
She's been on a mainline intercity train, the London Underground, the DLR, a couple of preserved steam railways.
When I asked her to draw a train she drew a recognisable steam engine from her Brio wooden railway.

[KeithW]

Not necessarily. Co Roscommon, N61 across the Dublin to Sligo line :

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5708585 ... 384!8i8192

It does seem, like in the UK, some initial builders of the lines (in pre-motor vehicle days) favoured crossings instead of bridges more than others. There aren't many left over A-roads in the UK either.

It was all about cost, a bridge cost a more money to build but you didnt need a man to open the gates. Even busy stations such as Middlesbrough had level crossings for situations where the bridges were low height. This is where the crossing gates were located at Middlesbrough before a bridge was built when the A66 went through the town. The gates were mainly used for moving large loads to the docks.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.57904 ... 6656?hl=en

On the Esk Valley they mostly had bridges but as the line followed the contours that was largely inevitable, Grosmont got a level crossing while Ruswarp has a bridge over the River Esk
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.46953 ... 8192?hl=en

[WHBM]

A steam loco (which is very stylised on the sign anyway) does a better job of that because it's a clearer shape.

I believe the loco is one of the original signs drawn by Margaret Calvert.

Lifting bridges I cross daily have at the bridge barriers and wig-wags the same as a railway crossing, but no advance warning otherwise.

As far as I can tell, in the sadly usual way the various additional and different signs introduced afterwards were nothing to do with the accident circumstances. Both the police escort and the qualified low loader crew had readily recognised it as a railway crossing, but at the time there was a perception that all such were supervised by a signalman, not that frequent 100mph trains ran on the line and would approach in less than a minute. They deliberately went over at crawl speed because the crew were concerned about their oversized load clearing the electric wires. The instruction signs were inadequate, but the replacement ones were excessively verbose.

[KeithW]

SIgns are not the real thing, so they don't need to look like the real thing, they need to be an easily recognisable indication of it. A steam loco (which is very stylised on the sign anyway) does a better job of that because it's a clearer shape.

So where is the smoke coming out of the chimney on a modern train, why does it not make a chuffing noise and where is Thomas the Tank Engine hiding. As a symbol the stream train is a very complex and poor representation of a modern train which is why in Germany you are more likely to see this sign.

[exiled]

SIgns are not the real thing, so they don't need to look like the real thing, they need to be an easily recognisable indication of it. A steam loco (which is very stylised on the sign anyway) does a better job of that because it's a clearer shape.

So where is the smoke coming out of the chimney on a modern train, why does it not make a chuffing noise and where is Thomas the Tank Engine hiding. As a symbol the stream train is a very complex and poor representation of a modern train which is why in Germany you are more likely to see this sign.

Germany is one of the few to use a modern train, the majority of European countries show a steam loco. Why? Because it is not meant to show 'a train', it is meant to warn about trains, the idea of trains. Ask the kid to draw a train and it is the steam loco in the majority. Also is that a train, a tram, a convoy of vehicles, an odd looking caterpillar?

[Herned]

So where is the smoke coming out of the chimney on a modern train, why does it not make a chuffing noise and where is Thomas the Tank Engine hiding. As a symbol the stream train is a very complex and poor representation of a modern train which is why in Germany you are more likely to see this sign.

It's a symbol that cannot be mistaken for anything else. No one capable of driving a car is going to be unclear about what the symbol means, at a glance. Of course it's anachronistic, but that doesn't matter. Recognition is all that matters

[Bryn666]

SIgns are not the real thing, so they don't need to look like the real thing, they need to be an easily recognisable indication of it. A steam loco (which is very stylised on the sign anyway) does a better job of that because it's a clearer shape.

So where is the smoke coming out of the chimney on a modern train, why does it not make a chuffing noise and where is Thomas the Tank Engine hiding. As a symbol the stream train is a very complex and poor representation of a modern train which is why in Germany you are more likely to see this sign.

Yet no one has an issue working out that a steam train symbol means trains are crossing the road ahead. Unlike the picket fence, which at a glance to someone unfamiliar with signs would mean "suburbs ahead". As you're quite fond of saying... feel free to tell the DfT why the steam train should be replaced by a much more illegible blob.