International communities LHT/RHT

[pjr10th]

The East African Community is considering federating into the East African Federation, a single sovereign state, which would be the largest in Africa. However, to tie this to our niche, various members of the EAC drive on different sides. South Sudan, DR Congo, Burundi and Rwanda drive on the right, and Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania drive on the left. Given that sovereign states I believe are supposed to keep traffic to one side under the international conventions (it would certainly be unique for a contiguous sovereign state to have different parts with different driving sides), do we think the EAF would switch entirely to LHT or RHT? Apparently, pre-DRC accession, Burundi and Rwanda were considering a switch to LHT to match the rest of the states. But South Sudan and DR Congo have re-balanced the shift a bit. The two largest nations in Africa and the future largest in Asia could somewhat shift the global balance of LHT/RHT countries.

Similarly, ASEAN is split between former British/Dutch colonies (+ Thailand) driving on the left and former French/American colonies driving on the right. Myanmar drives on the right but most of its vehicles are apparently RHD, so really should drive on the left. I wonder if we'll see any of the ASEAN states switch to driving on the left or if Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore etc. would ever switch to the right to have a single vehicle market for ASEAN.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Why?

The EU didn't have an issue with UK and Ireland driving on the left despite the majority driving on the right.

[RichardA626]

Myanmar drove on the left until 1970.

I did wonder why Japan chose to drive on the left.

[WHBM]

In China the Special Administrative Regions Macao and Hong Kong drive on the left, where mainland China is on the right. The only country to have both sides.

I did wonder why Japan chose to drive on the left.

True of several Far East countries without UK colonial connections. Japan, Thailand, Indonesia all on the left.

The most common reason dates back to pre-motor days, for how the locals drove horses and other animals, and is generally associated with human normal right-handedness. Some places sat on the cart and controlled the horses from there, other places sat on one of the horses. Both whipped with their right hand, but then found it natural to pass oncomers on different sides.

[pjr10th]

Myanmar drove on the left until 1970.

I did wonder why Japan chose to drive on the left.

The story for Myanmar is supposedly the dictator got told by a voice in a dream he should switch the country to RHT so ordered it the next day, but they never banned the import of RHD vehicles, so most Burmese import from Thailand or India.

The story for Japan is that the British won the contract for the railways, and built them for LHT, so when cars came to Japan, the Japanese kept to the left.

[pjr10th]

Why?

The EU didn't have an issue with UK and Ireland driving on the left despite the majority driving on the right.

In the EAC case, it was more if they became a federation, i.e. a single sovereign state. It would be exceptional for a single country to have LHT / RHT changeover points. The only example I can think of is China/Macao/Hong Kong, but those three generally operate indepenedently from each other. Burundi & Rwanda were already considering the switch because they can import cars/trucks significantly cheaper from neighbouring EAC countries, but now the DR Congo has joined.

[RichardA626]

Myanmar drove on the left until 1970.

I did wonder why Japan chose to drive on the left.

The story for Myanmar is supposedly the dictator got told by a voice in a dream he should switch the country to RHT so ordered it the next day, but they never banned the import of RHD vehicles, so most Burmese import from Thailand or India.

The story for Japan is that the British won the contract for the railways, and built them for LHT, so when cars came to Japan, the Japanese kept to the left.

I was thinking it was maybe because early cars imported to Japan were British, same with Thailand.

[Euan]

Within the proposed East African Federation the combined population of the LHT countries still exceeds that of the RHT countries even after the inclusion of the highly populated D R Congo but not by a lot, so definitely a fine balance as has been mentioned. On the other hand, the D R Congo would be the largest state within the federation by area and thus would likely make up a considerable proportion of the overall length of road which would have to be altered if the final decision favoured driving on the left. Essentially, it’s a question of whether you want to maximise consistency amongst the larger population or greatest length of road.

[FosseWay]

Myanmar drove on the left until 1970.

I did wonder why Japan chose to drive on the left.

The story for Myanmar is supposedly the dictator got told by a voice in a dream he should switch the country to RHT so ordered it the next day, but they never banned the import of RHD vehicles, so most Burmese import from Thailand or India.

The story for Japan is that the British won the contract for the railways, and built them for LHT, so when cars came to Japan, the Japanese kept to the left.

I was thinking it was maybe because early cars imported to Japan were British, same with Thailand.

I don't know the answer for Japan, though British influence with Malaya and Burma next door probably explains Thailand. But I doubt the railways had much influence on road conventions. Firstly, there must have been some form of convention for horse-drawn traffic in congested areas of anywhere developed and populous enough to have congested areas, long before railways were built by anyone. Secondly, the British built or influenced the railways in various places where trains now drive on the left (France and Sweden, for example), even though road traffic - in France at least - has always been on the right.

As to RHD vehicles being used in large numbers in Myanmar, this is also not as unusual as we might think. Long before Sweden switched sides, most private vehicles were LHD. The exceptions were British imports. Even Volvos and Saabs for local use tended to be LHD. Another place that drives on the right but has a preponderance of RHD vehicles is the Russian far east, where many used vehicles are imported from Japan. Or at least this was the case before the sanctions; I've no idea where the residents of Vladivostok etc. get their cars from now.

[Vierwielen]

Within the proposed East African Federation the combined population of the LHT countries still exceeds that of the RHT countries even after the inclusion of the highly populated D R Congo but not by a lot, so definitely a fine balance as has been mentioned. On the other hand, the D R Congo would be the largest state within the federation by area and thus would likely make up a considerable proportion of the overall length of road which would have to be altered if the final decision favoured driving on the left. Essentially, it’s a question of whether you want to maximise consistency amongst the larger population or greatest length of road.

DRC is an underdeveloped country , even compared to other African countries (GDP $1228 per capita compared to Kenya ($6122), Tanzania ($3374) and Uganda ($3018). Its road network is very sparse - it has 3050 km of paved road compared to 4200km in Uganda, 10,000 km in Tanzania and 14000 km in Kenya. None of the countries in the propsoed federation have any controlled access roads

DRC's vehicle ownership (2.7 million vehicles or 32 per 1000 people) is less than Kenya's (3.6 million vehicles or 32 per 1000 people). It does however have more vehicles per capita (and total) than any of the other countries in the proposed federation.

I think that these figures show that we cannot think about the LHD/RHD problem in a European situation. In my view the real problem would be publicising any change-over. Another road-related problem that they would face would be the question of harmonisation of the law on priority at junctions - Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania have inherited British rules of the road whereas DRC has inherited Belgian rules of the road.

[exiled]

I don't know the answer for Japan, though British influence with Malaya and Burma next door probably explains Thailand. But I doubt the railways had much influence on road conventions. Firstly, there must have been some form of convention for horse-drawn traffic in congested areas of anywhere developed and populous enough to have congested areas, long before railways were built by anyone. Secondly, the British built or influenced the railways in various places where trains now drive on the left (France and Sweden, for example), even though road traffic - in France at least - has always been on the right.

As to RHD vehicles being used in large numbers in Myanmar, this is also not as unusual as we might think. Long before Sweden switched sides, most private vehicles were LHD. The exceptions were British imports. Even Volvos and Saabs for local use tended to be LHD. Another place that drives on the right but has a preponderance of RHD vehicles is the Russian far east, where many used vehicles are imported from Japan. Or at least this was the case before the sanctions; I've no idea where the residents of Vladivostok etc. get their cars from now.

Japan I think had the same reason for LHT as most of the rest of the LHT world, sword on horseback. However when the Meiji restoration happened there was a lot of seeing how other countries did things, hence the use of emperor as a translation for the emperor's title.

For the RHD cars, vans, buses, and lorries in Myanmar there has been discussion IIRC about it reverting to LHT linking it back with India and Thailand, Thailand being the origin of a lot of its vehicles. One of the reasons Samoa switched to LHT was sourcing cheaper second hand RHD vehicles from Australia and New Zealand. IIRC if both Iceland and Sweden had largely had RHD vehicles rather than LHT ones in the 1960s they would have stayed driving on the left, the cost was still huge for both countries but having the vehicle fleet set up for decades as LHD helped in the transition and in the selling.

[Vierwielen]

I don't know the answer for Japan, though British influence with Malaya and Burma next door probably explains Thailand. But I doubt the railways had much influence on road conventions. Firstly, there must have been some form of convention for horse-drawn traffic in congested areas of anywhere developed and populous enough to have congested areas, long before railways were built by anyone. Secondly, the British built or influenced the railways in various places where trains now drive on the left (France and Sweden, for example), even though road traffic - in France at least - has always been on the right.

As to RHD vehicles being used in large numbers in Myanmar, this is also not as unusual as we might think. Long before Sweden switched sides, most private vehicles were LHD. The exceptions were British imports. Even Volvos and Saabs for local use tended to be LHD. Another place that drives on the right but has a preponderance of RHD vehicles is the Russian far east, where many used vehicles are imported from Japan. Or at least this was the case before the sanctions; I've no idea where the residents of Vladivostok etc. get their cars from now.

Japan I think had the same reason for LHT as most of the rest of the LHT world, sword on horseback. However when the Meiji restoration happened there was a lot of seeing how other countries did things, hence the use of emperor as a translation for the emperor's title.

For the RHD cars, vans, buses, and lorries in Myanmar there has been discussion IIRC about it reverting to LHT linking it back with India and Thailand, Thailand being the origin of a lot of its vehicles. One of the reasons Samoa switched to LHT was sourcing cheaper second hand RHD vehicles from Australia and New Zealand. IIRC if both Iceland and Sweden had largely had RHD vehicles rather than LHT ones in the 1960s they would have stayed driving on the left, the cost was still huge for both countries but having the vehicle fleet set up for decades as LHD helped in the transition and in the selling.

Sweden might still have changed as they have land borders with both Norway and Finland and at the time, a good ferry service to Denmark. Iceland on the other hand is an island and I do not think the ferries carry many vehicles to and from Iceland.

[KeithW]

Japan I think had the same reason for LHT as most of the rest of the LHT world, sword on horseback. However when the Meiji restoration happened there was a lot of seeing how other countries did things, hence the use of emperor as a translation for the emperor's title.

For the RHD cars, vans, buses, and lorries in Myanmar there has been discussion IIRC about it reverting to LHT linking it back with India and Thailand, Thailand being the origin of a lot of its vehicles. One of the reasons Samoa switched to LHT was sourcing cheaper second hand RHD vehicles from Australia and New Zealand. IIRC if both Iceland and Sweden had largely had RHD vehicles rather than LHT ones in the 1960s they would have stayed driving on the left, the cost was still huge for both countries but having the vehicle fleet set up for decades as LHD helped in the transition and in the selling.

Japan was a major strategic ally of the UK until the 1920's when the USA pressurised the UK into not renewing the Anglo Japanese alliance. Both Admiral Togo and Yamamoto had as junior officers spent time in the UK and spoke excellent English. The major regional super power in Southern Africa is South Africa and they drive on the left.

[jgharston]

Crossing central Africa from Indian Ocean to Atlantic, "East African Federation" is a bit of a misnomer.

[KeithW]

Similarly, ASEAN is split between former British/Dutch colonies (+ Thailand) driving on the left and former French/American colonies driving on the right. Myanmar drives on the right but most of its vehicles are apparently RHD, so really should drive on the left. I wonder if we'll see any of the ASEAN states switch to driving on the left or if Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore etc. would ever switch to the right to have a single vehicle market for ASEAN.

Modern cars typically are designed so they can be produced in either LHD or RHD versions and given that in Asia the following countries drive on the left I see little incentive or likelihood of a change - Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, East Timor, Hong Kong, Indonesia, India, Japan, Macao, Malaysia, Nepal, Pakistan, Singapore, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

As for Australasia I wouldn't hold your breath. At the end of the day the LHD/RHD split is more at a continental/sub continental level than country for the obvious reasons of having land borders. The last UK built new car I bought was My Rover 74 in 2004.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Similarly, ASEAN is split between former British/Dutch colonies (+ Thailand) driving on the left and former French/American colonies driving on the right. Myanmar drives on the right but most of its vehicles are apparently RHD, so really should drive on the left. I wonder if we'll see any of the ASEAN states switch to driving on the left or if Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore etc. would ever switch to the right to have a single vehicle market for ASEAN.

Modern cars typically are designed so they can be produced in either LHD or RHD versions and given that in Asia the following countries drive on the left I see little incentive or likelihood of a change - Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, East Timor, Hong Kong, Indonesia, India, Japan, Macao, Malaysia, Nepal, Pakistan, Singapore, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

As for Australasia I wouldn't hold your breath. At the end of the day the LHD/RHD split is more at a continental/sub continental level than country for the obvious reasons of having land borders. The last UK built new car I bought was My Rover 74 in 2004.

While that's true for manufacturers in Europe and Asia, in the USA GM is loath to incur the cost of incorporating RHD in their developments - even to the point of having one-sided safety structures which can pass the LHD offset crash test but not the RHD offset - all very strange as GM's international subsidiaries at Holden and Opel/Vauxhall were well-versed in RHD - with the closure of Holden in Australia, GM are exporting niche models from the USA but the conversion costs to RHD are very high

[Vierwielen]

Similarly, ASEAN is split between former British/Dutch colonies (+ Thailand) driving on the left and former French/American colonies driving on the right. Myanmar drives on the right but most of its vehicles are apparently RHD, so really should drive on the left. I wonder if we'll see any of the ASEAN states switch to driving on the left or if Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore etc. would ever switch to the right to have a single vehicle market for ASEAN.

Modern cars typically are designed so they can be produced in either LHD or RHD versions and given that in Asia the following countries drive on the left I see little incentive or likelihood of a change - Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, East Timor, Hong Kong, Indonesia, India, Japan, Macao, Malaysia, Nepal, Pakistan, Singapore, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

As for Australasia I wouldn't hold your breath. At the end of the day the LHD/RHD split is more at a continental/sub continental level than country for the obvious reasons of having land borders. The last UK built new car I bought was My Rover 74 in 2004.

While that's true for manufacturers in Europe and Asia, in the USA GM is loath to incur the cost of incorporating RHD in their developments - even to the point of having one-sided safety structures which can pass the LHD offset crash test but not the RHD offset - all very strange as GM's international subsidiaries at Holden and Opel/Vauxhall were well-versed in RHD - with the closure of Holden in Australia, GM are exporting niche models from the USA but the conversion costs to RHD are very high

Interesting - shows the isolationist mentality of the US market.

[roadtester]

While that's true for manufacturers in Europe and Asia, in the USA GM is loath to incur the cost of incorporating RHD in their developments - even to the point of having one-sided safety structures which can pass the LHD offset crash test but not the RHD offset - all very strange as GM's international subsidiaries at Holden and Opel/Vauxhall were well-versed in RHD - with the closure of Holden in Australia, GM are exporting niche models from the USA but the conversion costs to RHD are very high

Interesting - shows the isolationist mentality of the US market.

I think it depends which cars you're talking about. Back in the noughties, Australia was made the design and engineering centre for GM's rear-wheel drive platform, including for cars to be sold in the US.

Of course, that's all gone now with Holden extinct.

My recollection is that GM did pretty convincing right-hand drive versions of the Cadillac BLS (Saab-based) and CTS (North American) but their commitment constantly waxed and waned. I lost count of the number of times they tried to launch or relaunch their American brands in Europe.

[Ruperts Trooper]

While that's true for manufacturers in Europe and Asia, in the USA GM is loath to incur the cost of incorporating RHD in their developments - even to the point of having one-sided safety structures which can pass the LHD offset crash test but not the RHD offset - all very strange as GM's international subsidiaries at Holden and Opel/Vauxhall were well-versed in RHD - with the closure of Holden in Australia, GM are exporting niche models from the USA but the conversion costs to RHD are very high

Interesting - shows the isolationist mentality of the US market.

I think it depends which cars you're talking about. Back in the noughties, Australia was made the design and engineering centre for GM's rear-wheel drive platform, including for cars to be sold in the US.

Of course, that's all gone now with Holden extinct.

My recollection is that GM did pretty convincing right-hand drive versions of the Cadillac BLS (Saab-based) and CTS (North American) but their commitment constantly waxed and waned. I lost count of the number of times they tried to launch or relaunch their American brands in Europe.

Neither the BLS or CTS were sales successes in RHD form - neither was the US-built Opel/Vauxhall Ampera (Chevrolet Volt) taking several years to sell through the first, and only, batch shipped to Europe.

The Opel/Vauxhall Insignia suffered from GM's RHD-blindness as the Epsilon II platform was developed in the US and incapable of fitting the high-power powertrain in RHD versions as engine ancilliaries were in the way of the steering column - without the prospect of UK sales, Opel dropped both the RHD & LHD performance versions from development.

Can I echo the sentiments of others that it's nice to see you back.

[roadtester]

Neither the BLS or CTS were sales successes in RHD form - neither was the US-built Opel/Vauxhall Ampera (Chevrolet Volt) taking several years to sell through the first, and only, batch shipped to Europe.

The Opel/Vauxhall Insignia suffered from GM's RHD-blindness as the Epsilon II platform was developed in the US and incapable of fitting the high-power powertrain in RHD versions as engine ancilliaries were in the way of the steering column - without the prospect of UK sales, Opel dropped both the RHD & LHD performance versions from development.

Can I echo the sentiments of others that it's nice to see you back.

Thanks - nice to be back in touch.

I think that's the point. GM did good RHD versions of cars like the BLS, CTS and Ampera/Volt but weren't rewarded with decent sales so they then became discouraged and went through a period of giving up before taking a renewed interest a few years later, a repeating cycle.