Removal of Traffic Signals - How has it worked out?

[traffic-light-man]

I'm not particularly wanting to start a list of junctions where signals could be removed here, I'm just interested to see how it's working out where that has happened.

I came across an old local news article centred around how much better the traffic was flowing with the traffic signals switched off at a particular roundabout in Bournemouth. The signals-on-roundabouts discussion aside, I noticed amongst the comments at the bottom was Martin Cassini, who I believe is the chap that's been on TV before flying the flag for no-priority arrangements.

Anyway, as a result, it prompted me to take a GSV visit to the Cabstand junction in Portishead, which I believe was one of the ones Martin was involved with (or at least promoted). It was interesting to see that there's been several tweaks made over the years, including the addition of mini-roundabouts, an island, installation of zebra crossings, moving one of those zebra crossings and the installation of a set of signals for a pedestrian crossing. What was overwhelming, to me, was that despite being hailed a success, the lack of priority has been quickly addressed by asserting some form of priority control, albeit in a different way.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two locations immediately where signals were removed fairly recently, but both had the 'mitigating' measures put in place at the same time as the signals were removed. One's this crossroads in Padiham, Lancs, and the other is a dual T-junction in Chorley, Lancs, and I don't believe either have needed any changes since they were converted.

This got me thinking, how has it panned out elsewhere where signals were removed and has there been a need to make any substantial changes after the signals were first switched off?

[jervi]

People are already calling for removal of these signals and go back to a mini roundabout only mere days after the traffic lights were switched on.
https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022- ... diabolical

Whenever I've travelled through the new lights so far, there has been minimal traffic, however I expect due to unusual Christmas traffic flows traffic has been worse than otherwise.
Plus when the lights were designed, both directions of Station Road had green lights at the same time with the right turn being uncontrolled (no filter light or RAG for the right turn). However due to too many idiots on the road, people were trying to make the right turn without giving way, so now the two directions are on different phases, which is causing additional congestion with longer cycle times.

I personally like the traffic signals, along with the other improvements in the area. It is so much better for cycling and walking now, and even more once it is complete.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.95439 ... 384!8i8192 previous junction layout.

[AndyB]

If Martin Cassini's proposition that if motorists saw that a junction was unmarked they would slow down and take care were reasonable, the world would be a far better place, but he also thinks that motorists would choose a safe speed to drive it in the absence of signs.

Touchingly insane. People with visual impairments can't deal with shared space because differentiation between road and footway is essential to their safety. Any supposition that removal of priority junctions, traffic lights and speed limits would cause drivers to take responsibility for anything other than their own convenience...

[WHBM]

It's surprising how many apparently minor junctions, generally cross-roads, in Central London used to have signals long ago but have now been removed. Like this one, Pont Street/Cadogan Place, in Kensington :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4973269 ... 384!8i8192

[jnty]

If Martin Cassini's proposition that if motorists saw that a junction was unmarked they would slow down and take care were reasonable, the world would be a far better place, but he also thinks that motorists would choose a safe speed to drive it in the absence of signs.

Touchingly insane. People with visual impairments can't deal with shared space because differentiation between road and footway is essential to their safety. Any supposition that removal of priority junctions, traffic lights and speed limits would cause drivers to take responsibility for anything other than their own convenience...

The signals at Waterloo Place in Edinburgh (at the end of the A1) fail fairly regularly, and people often comment on how much more 'smoothly' the traffic flows in their absence. Of course, they are ignoring the throngs of pedestrians (many of them foreign tourists) waiting for a gap to cross or being tooted at when they attempt to assert themselves.

[AndyB]

Yeah, it’s not that simple. Traffic lights being out means that you know you have to negotiate. Absence of traffic lights and give way lines…

[L.J.D]

It worked out here with really good success and positive feedback from locals I've not heard anyone say anything bad about it at all. What's interesting is that they future proofed it here with NAL sockets for another crossing to be added on that arm but to this day its never happened the other arms all have signalised pedestrian crossings on though so it wasn't 100% removal of signals.

Here's a view before with its forest of signals it had before. It was a nightmare some long wait right turn phases to perform a simple manoeuvre.

[WhiteBlueRed]

If a junction works better without traffic lights, it means the traffic lights weren't needed in the first place. There needs to be stricter criteria for the installation of traffic signals.

[Debaser]

If a junction works better without traffic lights, it means the traffic lights weren't needed in the first place. There needs to be stricter criteria for the installation of traffic signals.

Hmmm...not like traffic flows change over time...also traffic signals are generally the junction of last resort (in the UK), simple priority junctions or roundabouts having insufficient capacity.

And 'works' is a vague definition. 'Works' for whom? The pedestrians who may make up the vast majority of users in an urban environment, or motor vehicles which take up the most space per user?

[jnty]

If a junction works better without traffic lights, it means the traffic lights weren't needed in the first place. There needs to be stricter criteria for the installation of traffic signals.

Hmmm...not like traffic flows change over time...also traffic signals are generally the junction of last resort (in the UK), simple priority junctions or roundabouts having insufficient capacity.

And 'works' is a vague definition. 'Works' for whom? The pedestrians who may make up the vast majority of users in an urban environment, or motor vehicles which take up the most space per user?

The roundabout referenced above touches upon two of these points - it looks to have been completed remodelled into a roundabout when traffic lights were 'removed'. Also, the traffic lights weren't fully removed but were moved on to the approach of the junction, which presumably allows control of flows to prevent the usual failure modes of roundabouts caused by dominant flows. It also seems fairly pedestrian unfriendly, with some movements going from requiring 2 crossing activations to requiring 5 or more with a massive detour (or, as presumably normally happens, a mad dash over the road in a gap.)

[wallmeerkat]

Cloughfern Corner - https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... ern_Corner around 1990 went from a traffic light crossroads to a busy roundabout with zebra crossings https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6732889 ... a=!3m1!1e3

A busy urban junction between several housing estates and the hospital to the south-east, as well as a route to rural Co Antrim - Ballyclare etc, or as a second road running parallel to the coast to get to Carrickfergus.

[Chris5156]

It's surprising how many apparently minor junctions, generally cross-roads, in Central London used to have signals long ago but have now been removed. Like this one, Pont Street/Cadogan Place, in Kensington :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4973269 ... 384!8i8192

That was the site of the very first installation of Mellor signal heads.

[traffic-light-man]

It's surprising how many apparently minor junctions, generally cross-roads, in Central London used to have signals long ago but have now been removed. Like this one, Pont Street/Cadogan Place, in Kensington :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4973269 ... 384!8i8192

That was the site of the very first installation of Mellor signal heads.

Had we (collective Sabristi effort 'we'!) not worked out a while back that those were only there for the photo op using the prototype equipment, and that the site never actually had signals installed?

[Chris5156]

It's surprising how many apparently minor junctions, generally cross-roads, in Central London used to have signals long ago but have now been removed. Like this one, Pont Street/Cadogan Place, in Kensington :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4973269 ... 384!8i8192

That was the site of the very first installation of Mellor signal heads.

Had we (collective Sabristi effort 'we'!) not worked out a while back that those were only there for the photo op using the prototype equipment, and that the site never actually had signals installed?

Gaaah, yes, now you say that, I think you're right. Here's a post from Gareth saying as much. I have, as usual, only remembered half a story

[pjr10th]

The two I know of best are Poyton and Douglas, both of which were replaced with quasi-roundabouts. The Douglas one seems to be working well from what I've seen / heard. Does anyone know about Poynton's longer term operation?

[traffic-light-man]

Poynton is still going as far as I'm aware, though last time I was in the area it was essentially being used as a mini roundabout. The paving in the centre was all filled in with tarmac as well which helped make it look a bit more like a roundabout.

The other one that I'd completely forgotten about in my original post is the one on the A554 in Birkenhead near the Irish ferry terminal, with the spiral markings. That one has essentially also become a mini roundabout for many users, from what I can tell.

[jabbaboy]

This roundabout - https://www.google.com/maps/@55.1670366 ... 312!8i6656 in Morpeth had light installed in the early 2012 and were removed in 2013 after a massive campaign called 'Lights Out' since it made traffic much worse

Article about it here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-24384235

Ironic 10 years later the 'temporary' mini roundabout is still there.

[Fenlander]

These lights have been removed before they've even been installed as the junction now won't be changed from a roundabout to a set of traffic lights.

[jnty]

These lights have been removed before they've even been installed as the junction now won't be changed from a roundabout to a set of traffic lights.

Holding a referendum on a new crossroads seems utterly bizarre. How on earth are people expected to make an informed decision?

[AlexBr967]

2011: roundabout
2012: Traffic lights
2016: roundabout is back

As you can guess the traffic lights actually made the traffic worse