All Wales Road Projects Scrapped?

[roadtester]

So the key transport issue, as you see it, in Wales today wasn't actually going to be addressed in a holistic way by the previous programme of transport improvements? Sounds like a rethink was probably the correct option!

Well if they were basically saying ‘our current transport policy doesn’t address our main transport problem of north-south links so here a different one that does’ I’d certainly agree!

But instead it seems to be ‘we’re not sorting bottlenecks and accident black spots because we don’t like cars, so here are some random stretches of bike lanes instead’.

If the 'random stretches of bike lane' were costing as much as the cancelled projects, you might have a point, but I'm pretty sure they're not.

The devolved administrations in the UK can't borrow and must balance their budget every year. This means that money not spend on roads must be spent somewhere else - it doesn't just go in a furnace. Wales presumably faces the same challenges as the rest of the country in maintaining the required investment in health, social care and education (among other things - the article highlights risks to bus funding too.) There's nothing quite like an unhealthy population to drag economic growth and destroy social value. It's hard to argue that the Welsh administration had targeted the roads investment so well that removing it would be a tragedy while also arguing that the released funds will be poorly spent elsewhere when so many pressing and urgent budgetary demands exist.

Well being half-Welsh (my dad was from the under-populated area of mid/west Wales) and a lifelong member of the Labour Party, I think Mark Drakeford has overall been doing a pretty good job, and the funding settlement for Wales is certainly unfair and doesn’t leave much room for manoeuvre. I just don’t particularly agree with the limited ambitions for transport in Wales - but as I also said up-thread, this lack of ambition is shared widely across the UK and not limited to Wales.

[KeithW]

What about a North-South rail link? It doesn't seem like a bad idea, as long as it is at least 100mph ideally 125 and is electrified fully.

Looking at a topological map of Wales finding a route capable of 100 mph would seem rather challenging to say the least. The closest to it is the line from Swansea to Shrewsbury and that takes over 3 hours to do about 120 miles. Its basically a tourist railway.
https://www.heart-of-wales.co.uk/

In addition there is not a whole lot of electrical power generation in the area either as most of the operational stations are on or near the coastline.

I have looked at the Welsh transport strategy document and I think a reasonable precis is 'get on your bike'.

Here is a quote from the document

where we need new transport infrastructure, we will use the Sustainable Transport Hierarchy to give priority to interventions that support walking and cycling, public transport and ultra-low emissions vehicles over other private motor vehicles.

More here

However, we also need to achieve mode shift with more people using public transport, walking and cycling. Based on our current analysis, we have set a target of 45% of journeys to be made by public transport, walking and cycling – by 2040. This represents an increase of 13 percentage points on the estimated current mode share of 32%. We have also committed to keeping this under review if justified by the evidence. We will need to include measures within our evaluation framework to track progress against this target and make sure that in achieving this target we do not have a negative differential impact on people who share protected characteristics and who rely on public transport.

As for rail this is the vision

For bus and rail, we will continue to gather more specific data on punctuality, use, reliability, safety and service provision as well as barriers to use. We will also need to track our progress towards lower emissions buses and licensed vehicles, and decarbonising rail traction.

Quite how they plan to achieve this is unclear, in fact there are lots of ambitious targets but little in the way of what actually needs to be done to make it work.

[rhyds]

So the key transport issue, as you see it, in Wales today wasn't actually going to be addressed in a holistic way by the previous programme of transport improvements? Sounds like a rethink was probably the correct option!

Except its not going to be fixed by any suggested public transport projects either.

So better to throw money we don't have down the drain making roundabouts bigger instead?

Its more the case of realising that "crossing your fingers and hoping cars go away" is not a realistic transport strategy. This isn't an urban transport network we're talking about, or even the densely populated Southern Valleys that are getting billions in South Wales Metro spending, this is a stop/cancellation across the whole of Wales

Mid Wales is a bit of a red herring anyway - it constitutes a small proportion of the projects under review and several of them have partially or fully survived it.

No it isn't, two of the cancelled/downgraded schemes (A483 Wrexham, A494/Flintshire Red Route) will have a knock-on effect on rural North and Mid Wales. Both schemes have a massive issue where long distance traffic has to mix with local traffic along routes that are woefully inadequate. The A494 example is the most ridiculous as the Eastern half of the scheme has already been build as D4HS with lots of NMU and local traffic provision, only to smash head first in to an ancient D2 with little provision for any NMUs. Those two sections are basically the Gateway to North and Mid Wales for tourism, which is pretty much the only industry left in these areas.

[WHBM]

(among other things - the article highlights risks to bus funding too.)

One of the reasons bus funding has also got out of control and risen exponentially per mile actually driven is, simplistically, buses have lost their market. Fares taken nowadays are a pittance. The passengers you see inside what remains are principally seniors, on free passes, schoolchildren on reduced fares, and that's pretty much it. Outside major urban areas (and only some of those) they have ceased to be a transport mode, and just become a social service.

[rhyds]

I think everything you say is basically correct but in the UK we do lack ambition when it comes to the transformative nature of investment in infrastructure. If we were still in the EU and this were a remote area of Spain with similarly difficult terrain, I suspect a new rail line or a new North South DC link are options that wouldn’t be rejected out of hand.

Even when we were part of the EU you'd have struggled to get funding for rail and road through Mid Wales. For EU funding matters Wales was split in to two areas: "East" and "West".

The "West" area contained Gwynedd, Conwy, Sir Ddinbych/Denbighshire, Ceredigion, Sir Benfro/Pembrokeshire, Sir Gar/Carmarthenshire, Abertawe/Swansea and the various South Wales Valleys councils. This is the area that was considered most in need of EU funding (so called "Objective One" areas). There was EU funding of roads projects here, most obviously the fantastic upgrades to the A486 through Ceredigion and the Llandysul bypass. The problem is the scheme stops at the Sir Gar county boundary.

The "East" area contained the councils left over, which were Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, Wrecsam, Sir Fynwy/Monmouthshire, Casnewydd/Newport, Caerdydd and Penybont/Bridgend. It also, for some unknown reason, included Powys, a county with little population, near zero industry and the most sensible route for most of Mid Wales' North-South transport networks. The "East" area didn't qualify for most EU funding, which IMO is a large part of the reason that there is considerable Euroscepticism in those areas

[roadtester]

I think everything you say is basically correct but in the UK we do lack ambition when it comes to the transformative nature of investment in infrastructure. If we were still in the EU and this were a remote area of Spain with similarly difficult terrain, I suspect a new rail line or a new North South DC link are options that wouldn’t be rejected out of hand.

Even when we were part of the EU you'd have struggled to get funding for rail and road through Mid Wales. For EU funding matters Wales was split in to two areas: "East" and "West".

The "West" area contained Gwynedd, Conwy, Sir Ddinbych/Denbighshire, Ceredigion, Sir Benfro/Pembrokeshire, Sir Gar/Carmarthenshire, Abertawe/Swansea and the various South Wales Valleys councils. This is the area that was considered most in need of EU funding (so called "Objective One" areas). There was EU funding of roads projects here, most obviously the fantastic upgrades to the A486 through Ceredigion and the Llandysul bypass. The problem is the scheme stops at the Sir Gar county boundary.

The "East" area contained the councils left over, which were Sir y Fflint/Flintshire, Wrecsam, Sir Fynwy/Monmouthshire, Casnewydd/Newport, Caerdydd and Penybont/Bridgend. It also, for some unknown reason, included Powys, a county with little population, near zero industry and the most sensible route for most of Mid Wales' North-South transport networks. The "East" area didn't qualify for most EU funding, which IMO is a large part of the reason that there is considerable Euroscepticism in those areas

On that basis, Wales and the UK should probably been lobbying to have Wales as a whole recognised as the relevant unit for decision-making. On a per-head income basis, the whole of Wales - like most of the UK outside the South East - is probably quite poor compared with the European average.

[WHBM]

It must be very difficult for the Welsh Government to avoid accusations of being two-faced on green-ness when yesterday it is announced that one airline, Air India, is ordering 250 new Airbus aircraft in one go, all of whose wings are made in Wales, at Broughton near Shotton, and the government of course praises the new jobs and economic stimulus created, and how good that Wales is in the forefront of airline technology.

The total order, an equal number also from Boeing, dwarfs the whole UK airliner fleet. Meanwhile the Welsh Government says what is important in life, and what they are spending government funds on, is a few more intermittent bicycle lanes that nobody uses.

[jnty]

It must be very difficult for the Welsh Government to avoid accusations of being two-faced on green-ness when yesterday it is announced that one airline, Air India, is ordering 250 new Airbus aircraft in one go, all of whose wings are made in Wales, at Broughton near Shotton, and the government of course praises the new jobs and economic stimulus created, and how good that Wales is in the forefront of airline technology.

The total order, an equal number also from Boeing, dwarfs the whole UK airliner fleet. Meanwhile the Welsh Government says what is important in life, and what they are spending government funds on, is a few more intermittent bicycle lanes that nobody uses.

I missed the press announcement where they abolished all cars - or planes for that matter?!

[roadtester]

It must be very difficult for the Welsh Government to avoid accusations of being two-faced on green-ness when yesterday it is announced that one airline, Air India, is ordering 250 new Airbus aircraft in one go, all of whose wings are made in Wales, at Broughton near Shotton, and the government of course praises the new jobs and economic stimulus created, and how good that Wales is in the forefront of airline technology.

The total order, an equal number also from Boeing, dwarfs the whole UK airliner fleet. Meanwhile the Welsh Government says what is important in life, and what they are spending government funds on, is a few more intermittent bicycle lanes that nobody uses.

That’ll be the same Broughton plant that relies on its proximity to the vital A494 and A55 arteries which have been de-emphasised in the latest Welsh roads announcements…

[WHBM]

I missed the press announcement where they abolished all cars - or planes for that matter?!

Did you miss the announcement of abolishing all infrastructure improvements for cars ?

[danfw194]

A shame, but not a surprise, this has been on the cards ever since the review was announced. I hope (in vain) that they follow this with an extensively funded plan to improve and expand public transport across the country. Canning road projects alone is not a 'new path'.

[jnty]

I missed the press announcement where they abolished all cars - or planes for that matter?!

Did you miss the announcement of abolishing all infrastructure improvements for cars ?

Yes - they have pursued policies designed to restrict growth in their domestic carbon emissions during a climate emergency. Yet you're arguing that this somehow morally compels them to unilaterally disrupt the construction of any vehicle of any kind which produces emissions at all. I'm not sure I follow the logic. If they had, for example, banned all planes from Welsh airspace (not that they have the authority to) then yes, that would probably be pretty hypocritical. But they haven't.

I'm very sure that the Welsh executive - again, not that it's really within their formal responsibility - would like to see India, as one of the most populous counties in the world, continue to improve its position in terms of carbon emissions. They've presumably judged that the best way to that is moral leadership and not arbitrary economic boycotts.

Most countries are not pursuing the construction of new airports for various reasons - are they also hypocritical if they involve themselves in the global aeronautical supply chain?

[roadtester]

I missed the press announcement where they abolished all cars - or planes for that matter?!

Did you miss the announcement of abolishing all infrastructure improvements for cars ?

Yes - they have pursued policies designed to restrict growth in their domestic carbon emissions during a climate emergency. Yet you're arguing that this somehow morally compels them to unilaterally disrupt the construction of any vehicle of any kind which produces emissions at all. I'm not sure I follow the logic. If they had, for example, banned all planes from Welsh airspace (not that they have the authority to) then yes, that would probably be pretty hypocritical. But they haven't.

I'm very sure that the Welsh executive - again, not that it's really within their formal powers - would like to see India, as one of the most populous counties in the world, continue to improve its position in terms of carbon emissions. They've presumably judged that the best way to that is moral leadership and not arbitrary economic boycotts.

Most countries are not pursuing the construction of new airports for various reasons - are they also hypocritical if they involve themselves in the global aeronautical supply chain?

But the Welsh government did subsidise a North-South air service to improve links, so like all governments they are being inconsistent, or at least they do sometimes think regional policy can trump carbon reduction.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... s-22558766

[jnty]

Did you miss the announcement of abolishing all infrastructure improvements for cars ?

Yes - they have pursued policies designed to restrict growth in their domestic carbon emissions during a climate emergency. Yet you're arguing that this somehow morally compels them to unilaterally disrupt the construction of any vehicle of any kind which produces emissions at all. I'm not sure I follow the logic. If they had, for example, banned all planes from Welsh airspace (not that they have the authority to) then yes, that would probably be pretty hypocritical. But they haven't.

I'm very sure that the Welsh executive - again, not that it's really within their formal powers - would like to see India, as one of the most populous counties in the world, continue to improve its position in terms of carbon emissions. They've presumably judged that the best way to that is moral leadership and not arbitrary economic boycotts.

Most countries are not pursuing the construction of new airports for various reasons - are they also hypocritical if they involve themselves in the global aeronautical supply chain?

But the Welsh government did subsidise a North-South air service to improve links, so like all governments they are being inconsistent, or at least they do sometimes think regional policy can trump carbon reduction.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... s-22558766

It's worth remembering that they will still be spending millions on roads after this, including investment on projects considered in the report. Reading this thread you'd think they'd announced they were rolling them all up and putting them in a cupboard next weekend.

[roadtester]

I’d agree that a lot of the reporting exaggerated the extent of the cuts.

[Conekicker]

Blunkett, when he was at Sheffield City Council, famously announced that there would be no new roads built in the city. That didn't last too long AIR.

[Barkstar]

As can be imagined, this is going down like a cup of cold sick on Welsh media/social media this morning.

3) The "Induced Demand" argument may work in urban areas, however in rural projects like the Llanbedr bypass (a mile of road and new bridge) isn't going to lead to increased car use as there's not much in the way of local supressed demand to induce.

Llanbedr's much needed bypass would have been completed this year but despite everything being in place in 2020 got put on hold and then the funding withdrawn. I have stayed there several time over Easter and it can be chaos, the village being the only route to the very popular and sizeable Shell Island campsite. It has also put paid to plans to develop the airfield.

If it is true the measure of the WG can be seen in a suggestion that holiday makers heading for Shell Island could be sent to a park and ride in Barmouth and then bussed to the site. I really hope that it was a joke but I fear not.

Apologies as the link is a Reach site https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... h-26230548

[DB617]

But the Welsh government did subsidise a North-South air service to improve links, so like all governments they are being inconsistent, or at least they do sometimes think regional policy can trump carbon reduction.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... s-22558766

Allegedly most of the passengers on that service were civil servants and Welsh politicians! (source: one of the civil servants )

[Ruperts Trooper]

If it is true the measure of the WG can be seen in a suggestion that holiday makers heading for Shell Island could be sent to a park and ride in Barmouth and then bussed to the site. I really hope that it was a joke but I fear not.

That'll make interesting viewing - I can just imagine campers trying to get all their gear on a bus - and caravans being hooked on the back !!!

[orudge]

One thing that was mentioned in the original BBC article, but doesn’t seem to have been discussed much, was the statement that any new road projects “must pass strict criteria which means they must not increase carbon emissions, they must not increase the number of cars on the road, they must not lead to higher speeds and higher emissions, and they must not negatively impact the environment”.

Reading this literally, the “must not lead to higher speeds” suggests that - presumably - no real road improvements of any sort can take place! Certainly no bypasses, even just of a small village; junction improvements would seem to be out too. Some of these might of course reduce emissions if it means cars aren’t sitting congested in town centres, as well as improving safety. Maybe any new road projects would also have 20mph average speed cameras attached?