Speed Limit on the A90

[Dougman]

There's probably a simple explanation but what is the speed limit here?

The end of motorway signs indicate the end of motorway rules, there's no other speed limit signs and the street lighting continues past the end of motorway sign. Is the speed limit going forward 30mph? Do special roads not need to have speed limit signs since they aren't signed as motorways?

[Chris5156]

This is in Scotland, where viewers have their own programmes, but in England:
- the End of Motorway sign ends motorway restrictions, as you say, but doesn’t change the speed limit
- if the limit before and after it is the same, there doesn’t need to be a speed limit sign at that point
- however, if the road beyond has lighting and a limit higher than 30, then repeaters will need to be installed, with the first one not too far after the motorway ends - I think in England and Wales it’s something like 290 yards but in Scotland it’s a similar distance expressed in metres

If there are no NSL repeaters on the A90 section, that’s wrong, I think.

[solocle]

This is in Scotland, where viewers have their own programmes, but in England:
- the End of Motorway sign ends motorway restrictions, as you say, but doesn’t change the speed limit
- if the limit before and after it is the same, there doesn’t need to be a speed limit sign at that point
- however, if the road beyond has lighting and a limit higher than 30, then repeaters will need to be installed, with the first one not too far after the motorway ends - I think in England and Wales it’s something like 290 yards but in Scotland it’s a similar distance expressed in metres

If there are no NSL repeaters on the A90 section, that’s wrong, I think.

It's a special road, so NSL repeaters would themselves be incorrect. 70 signs!

But as a special road, street lighting shouldn't affect the limit either.

[tom66]

To further complicate matters it is a variable speed limit road. I think repeaters/NSL signage of any kind would be wrong, unless it's one of those odd arrangements where NSL applies for a short section between schemes.

[Chris5156]

Ah! A special road with a variable speed limit. Ignore everything I said, we’re in a whole new world

[Bryn666]

This is in Scotland, where viewers have their own programmes, but in England:
- the End of Motorway sign ends motorway restrictions, as you say, but doesn’t change the speed limit
- if the limit before and after it is the same, there doesn’t need to be a speed limit sign at that point
- however, if the road beyond has lighting and a limit higher than 30, then repeaters will need to be installed, with the first one not too far after the motorway ends - I think in England and Wales it’s something like 290 yards but in Scotland it’s a similar distance expressed in metres

If there are no NSL repeaters on the A90 section, that’s wrong, I think.

It's a special road, so NSL repeaters would themselves be incorrect. 70 signs!

But as a special road, street lighting shouldn't affect the limit either.

Scotland seems to be wavering with 70 signs, not sure what the exact position is today.

Of course, if this stupid gap wasn't there in the first place and it was all M90...

[orudge]

Covered presumably by the The M90/A90 Trunk Road (Admiralty Interchange to Dalmeny) (Variable Speed Limits, Actively Managed Hard Shoulder and Bus Lane) Regulations 2017.

It refers to the national speed limit saying it "means any prohibition imposed on a road by regulation 3 of the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974(1) or by the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) Order 1977(2);".

Regulation 3 refers to "3. No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a motorway at a speed exceeding 70 miles per hour:"

So that's clear enough for the M90 in that section, but for the A90 Special Road? Well it's not a motorway (motorways in Scotland being any special road limited only to Class I and II; the A90 here permits Class IV too). So who knows what technically applies!

[nowster]

Now, that's interesting. The rabbit trail from the SI referenced leads back to this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/197 ... tents/made

The 1974 SI doesn't seem to be online.

It refers to "roads which are not motorways". Maybe we've been wrong about Special Roads?

[nowster]

And more. The NI legislation from 1974 specifically mentions Special Roads, whereas the 1975 SI says "not a motorway".

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisr/197 ... 064_en.pdf

[nowster]

And here we have it:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/197 ... e/data.pdf

2. The provisions of the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary
Speed Limit) Order 1977, as varied by the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per
hour (Temporary Speed Limit) (Variation) Order 1978, (which Order, as so varied, imposes during
the period from 31st May 1977 to 30th November 1978 a general speed limit of 70 mph on dual
carriageway roads (not being motorways), a general speed limit of 60 mph on single carriageway
roads (not being motorways) and speed limits of 60 mph on certain specified dual carriageway roads
and of 50 mph on certain specified single carriageway roads) are hereby continued indefinitely.

Interestingly, the equivalent for Northern Ireland specifically mentions Special Roads (implying motorways), but the England/Wales/Scotland version just mentions motorways and non motorways.

Apparently, the speed limit on non-motorway dual carriageway special roads on the island of Great Britain is 70mph, unless there is some other later legislation which repeals this SI.

[orudge]

Scotland seems to be wavering with 70 signs, not sure what the exact position is today.

The AWPR opened with standard NSL signs, but these were replaced within a month or two with 70 signs, if that counts for anything.

[nowster]

Scotland seems to be wavering with 70 signs, not sure what the exact position is today.

The AWPR opened with standard NSL signs, but these were replaced within a month or two with 70 signs, if that counts for anything.

If my trawl through the historic Statutory Instruments is correct, and nothing has changed in the speed limit legislation since the series of SIs spanning 1973-1978, they shouldn't be necessary. Had we not had the 1973 Oil Crisis, the situation would have been different.

[solocle]

Scotland seems to be wavering with 70 signs, not sure what the exact position is today.

The AWPR opened with standard NSL signs, but these were replaced within a month or two with 70 signs, if that counts for anything.

If my trawl through the historic Statutory Instruments is correct, and nothing has changed in the speed limit legislation since the series of SIs spanning 1973-1978, they shouldn't be necessary. Had we not had the 1973 Oil Crisis, the situation would have been different.

I think the key point is what constitutes a "road", this is probably untested in court vis-a-vis Special Roads.

“road” means, subject to subsection (3) below, any way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage (by whatever means and whether subject to a toll or not) and includes the road’s verge, and any bridge (whether permanent or temporary) over which, or tunnel through which, the road passes; and any reference to a road includes a part thereof;

“road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;

Do Special Roads actually constitute a right of passage?

[Dougman]

Thanks all. Very interesting but I'm not sure I'm any the wiser

[Chris5156]

Thanks all. Very interesting but I'm not sure I'm any the wiser

It’s very simple. If you go too fast and you get pulled over, the speed limit is whatever the police officer says it is

[Steven]

The AWPR opened with standard NSL signs, but these were replaced within a month or two with 70 signs, if that counts for anything.

If my trawl through the historic Statutory Instruments is correct, and nothing has changed in the speed limit legislation since the series of SIs spanning 1973-1978, they shouldn't be necessary. Had we not had the 1973 Oil Crisis, the situation would have been different.

I think the key point is what constitutes a "road", this is probably untested in court vis-a-vis Special Roads.

“road” means, subject to subsection (3) below, any way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage (by whatever means and whether subject to a toll or not) and includes the road’s verge, and any bridge (whether permanent or temporary) over which, or tunnel through which, the road passes; and any reference to a road includes a part thereof;

“road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;

Do Special Roads actually constitute a right of passage?

No, Special Roads are not a public right of way, so they are not a "road" in the sense of either Act.

[AndyB]

And more. The NI legislation from 1974 specifically mentions Special Roads, whereas the 1975 SI says "not a motorway".

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisr/197 ... 064_en.pdf

NI does things differently, but in this case we do things better. We restrict the speed of cars.

[nowster]

No, Special Roads are not a public right of way, so they are not a "road" in the sense of either Act.

I knew in my guts there had to be some sort of strict legal definition involved. Thanks!

So, what speed can an electric scooter go on the Severn Bridge footpath?

[Dougman]

Thanks all. Very interesting but I'm not sure I'm any the wiser

It’s very simple. If you go too fast and you get pulled over, the speed limit is whatever the police officer says it is

Would my counter argument quoting this thread be enough to get me off? sure I could baffle him a bit!