Signposts to destinations over the border

[nowster]

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

That's very much pick-and-mix signage there: French for overall design, and German for "yellow backing for non-motorway".

[Owain]

I'm still hoping to visit Constantinople one day.

The name of that city is a strange one. Under most of the period of Ottoman rule (1453-1922), it was known as Qustantiniya (or however you want to romanise قسطنطينيه), which is clearly derived from Konstantinoupolis. Judging from Ottoman coins, there was a brief period in the 18th century when it was either Istambol or Islambol (اسلامبول), the latter presumably being a "folk etymology" to link the name with the Ottoman Empire's religion.

The change to Istanbul in 1923 was part of Atatürk's policy of distancing modern Turkey from its Ottoman past; both names have been valid under Turkish rule.

In my next book (on British foreign policy in the mid-19th-century Mediterranean sphere), it is likely to feature quite prominently. It's always Constantinople in official documents from the era (and was in fact the second-most prestigious posting in the British diplomatic service after Paris), but I have seen unofficial documents (e.g. travel writing) where it is referred to as Stambul.

To me, I think it's always going to be Constantinople. A Greek colleague told me that I'd be popular in Greece!

[Chris5156]

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

That's very much pick-and-mix signage there: French for overall design, and German for "yellow backing for non-motorway".

Yes, French design for overhead and motorway signs, certainly, but Belgian and German designs for many other signs.

To illustrate the Luxembough mish-mash, this Germany-style sign in French does use white ovals!

[Vierwielen]

Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.

Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.

If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.

Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...

Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.

Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.

Liechtenstein often appears to do things as if it was a Swiss Canton with a princely family, including the road signs. So if the Swiss put the oval on the sign to indicate a border crossing, so will Liechtenstein.

My understanding is that in most thbings, Liechtenstein is a de facto Swiss canton. The biggest obstancle to then actually being such is the fact that they have a prince - something which is an anathama to the Swiss. As far as I am aware, they only have one embassy - in Switzerland. In all other respects, they are represented by the Swiss diplomatic corp. They have their own stamps (why not - it brings in good money), but use the Swiss currency (excpet for special issues which again bring in good money).

[Ritchie333]

There are plenty of signs in southern France pointing towards "Barcelone".

[exiled]

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

That's very much pick-and-mix signage there: French for overall design, and German for "yellow backing for non-motorway".

Yes, French design for overhead and motorway signs, certainly, but Belgian and German designs for many other signs.

To illustrate the Luxembough mish-mash, this Germany-style sign in French does use white ovals!

Luxembourg I suppose had the good fortune of being able to choose from its neighbours to see what was the best in terms of roadsigns and what was Belgian. Belgium really does have the poorest of the area in my opinion, combined with the language rule not being great for navigation.

Belgian and Luxembourg history does mean you get a sign in Belgium welcoming you to Luxembourg. After crossing the border, from Luxembourg.

[nowster]

There are plenty of signs in southern France pointing towards "Barcelone".

Erected by the Montserrat Cabal?

[Vierwielen]

Luxembourg I suppose had the good fortune of being able to choose from its neighbours to see what was the best in terms of roadsigns and what was Belgian. Belgium really does have the poorest of the area in my opinion, combined with the language rule not being great for navigation.

Belgian and Luxembourg history does mean you get a sign in Belgium welcoming you to Luxembourg. After crossing the border, from Luxembourg.

To put things into perspective - after the Napoleonic Wars, Belgium and the Netherlands became a single kingdom under the Dutch king while the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg became an independent country but part of the fiefdom of the Dutch king. In 1830 the Belgians rebelled and in 1839, under the Treaty of London, Belgian independence was recognised with Luxembourg being split into two - the French-speaking part becoming a Belgian province and the "Germanic"-speaking part retaining its indepence under the Dutch king. In 1890, Queen Wilhelmina ascended the Dutch throne. Luxembourg law did not recognise female monarchs, so the links with the Netherlands were broken. That is why we now have a Belgian province of Luxembourg and an independent Duchy of Luxembourg.

[rhyds]

Please give examples of how this is done in other countries.

Here's a sign to two towns in a foreign land signed in two languages

[RichardA626]

Luxembourg I suppose had the good fortune of being able to choose from its neighbours to see what was the best in terms of roadsigns and what was Belgian. Belgium really does have the poorest of the area in my opinion, combined with the language rule not being great for navigation.

Belgian and Luxembourg history does mean you get a sign in Belgium welcoming you to Luxembourg. After crossing the border, from Luxembourg.

To put things into perspective - after the Napoleonic Wars, Belgium and the Netherlands became a single kingdom under the Dutch king while the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg became an independent country but part of the fiefdom of the Dutch king. In 1830 the Belgians rebelled and in 1839, under the Treaty of London, Belgian independence was recognised with Luxembourg being split into two - the French-speaking part becoming a Belgian province and the "Germanic"-speaking part retaining its indepence under the Dutch king. In 1890, Queen Wilhelmina ascended the Dutch throne. Luxembourg law did not recognise female monarchs, so the links with the Netherlands were broken. That is why we now have a Belgian province of Luxembourg and an independent Duchy of Luxembourg.

I did wonder why there was a Belgian province of Luxembourg, separate from the Duchy. Luxembourg was in customs union with the Empire of Germany up to the end of the First World War.

[Vierwielen]

Luxembourg I suppose had the good fortune of being able to choose from its neighbours to see what was the best in terms of roadsigns and what was Belgian. Belgium really does have the poorest of the area in my opinion, combined with the language rule not being great for navigation.

Belgian and Luxembourg history does mean you get a sign in Belgium welcoming you to Luxembourg. After crossing the border, from Luxembourg.

To put things into perspective - after the Napoleonic Wars, Belgium and the Netherlands became a single kingdom under the Dutch king while the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg became an independent country but part of the fiefdom of the Dutch king. In 1830 the Belgians rebelled and in 1839, under the Treaty of London, Belgian independence was recognised with Luxembourg being split into two - the French-speaking part becoming a Belgian province and the "Germanic"-speaking part retaining its indepence under the Dutch king. In 1890, Queen Wilhelmina ascended the Dutch throne. Luxembourg law did not recognise female monarchs, so the links with the Netherlands were broken. That is why we now have a Belgian province of Luxembourg and an independent Duchy of Luxembourg.

I did wonder why there was a Belgian province of Luxembourg, separate from the Duchy. Luxembourg was in customs union with the Empire of Germany up to the end of the First World War.

You are quite right - the Duchy joined the German Customs Union in 1842, some 29 years before the unification of Germany was complete. It is also interesting to note that Belgium has a province Brabant and the Netherlands has a province Noord-Brabant.

[Vierwielen]

Please give examples of how this is done in other countries.

Here's a sign to two towns in a foreign land signed in two languages

If Wales adopted the same policy as is used in much of Continental Europe, we would all be lost: Some parts of Belgium
(wallonia) have signposts to Anvers and other parts (Flanders) have sign posts to Antwerpen. Likewise with Luik and Liege though signposts to Rijsel have "Lill" in brackets.

[Burns]

Norway signs Murmansk on its side of the border. I can't imagine there's much cross border traffic in this quiet corner of the Arctic.

https://goo.gl/maps/DTZ39btuX5rgnq3P8

[Chris Bertram]

Signs in Northern Ireland are in English only right up to the border, so Dublin is always Dublin and never Atha Cliath, but Ireland signs Belfast as Beal Feirste/Belfast, and Londonderry as Doire/Derry (no London south of the border). But I don't remember seeing GB or IRE ovals on either side.

[Vierwielen]

Norway signs Murmansk on its side of the border. I can't imagine there's much cross border traffic in this quiet corner of the Arctic.

https://goo.gl/maps/DTZ39btuX5rgnq3P8

The E105 is not up to the usual standards that one would expect of a Euro-route. (surprise surprise). I followed it to the border in my Google-car and at the border, the signpost has the name "Murmansk" in both latin and cyrillic script. The Google-car stopped about 100 metres from the border.

[Osthagen]

Norway signs Murmansk on its side of the border. I can't imagine there's much cross border traffic in this quiet corner of the Arctic.

https://goo.gl/maps/DTZ39btuX5rgnq3P8

Not a lot of traffic, no. But 14 years ago this Summer, I did exactly that. I did nigh on 11 hours non-stop on the E6 between Skibotn and Kirkenes driving continually from about quarter to 6 in the morning, with a steady flow of coffee from my flask. I stopped in Kirkenes for about an hour, before clocking up the remaining 3 and bit hours and 150 or so miles to Murmansk, and crossing the border into Russia with probably the most paperwork I've ever needed for travel (!), I still remember this brief but awful feeling as the Russian border patrol officer looked up from my documents halfway through scanning them and glared at me in a way that would have made Alex DeLarge look positively benevolent. The last thing I remember is collapsing on a bed in an attractively-priced but rather gloomy Murmansk hotel!

It was the most grueling drive I've ever done - I phoned my father's cousin (who is Norwegian) the night before doing it, and he advised against it - but honestly I'd go here again and break it up with more stops, because it was also one of the most beautiful. Think the West Highlands on steroids. I can hardly believe I was only 20
I went back to Russia a few years later, but I did all of my travelling on internal flights, which given how drained I was after that experience in 2009, and that I was travelling from one side of Russia to the other, was probably the right call.

[Vierwielen]

Norway signs Murmansk on its side of the border. I can't imagine there's much cross border traffic in this quiet corner of the Arctic.

https://goo.gl/maps/DTZ39btuX5rgnq3P8

Not a lot of traffic, no. But 14 years ago this Summer, I did exactly that. I did nigh on 11 hours non-stop on the E6 between Skibotn and Kirkenes driving continually from about quarter to 6 in the morning, with a steady flow of coffee from my flask. I stopped in Kirkenes for about an hour, before clocking up the remaining 3 and bit hours and 150 or so miles to Murmansk, and crossing the border into Russia with probably the most paperwork I've ever needed for travel (!), I still remember this brief but awful feeling as the Russian border patrol officer looked up from my documents halfway through scanning them and glared at me in a way that would have made Alex DeLarge look positively benevolent. The last thing I remember is collapsing on a bed in an attractively-priced but rather gloomy Murmansk hotel!

It was the most grueling drive I've ever done - I phoned my father's cousin (who is Norwegian) the night before doing it, and he advised against it - but honestly I'd go here again and break it up with more stops, because it was also one of the most beautiful. Think the West Highlands on steroids. I can hardly believe I was only 20
I went back to Russia a few years later, but I did all of my travelling on internal flights, which given how drained I was after that experience in 2009, and that I was travelling from one side of Russia to the other, was probably the right call.

According to Google Maps, the distance from the Norwegian border to Murmansk as the crow flies is about 150 km. but according to viaMichelin the road is about 230 km. This shows that the road is far from being direct. Surprisingly I was allowed to take my Googlecar from a point 20 km inside the border to Murmansk.

[RichardA626]

To put things into perspective - after the Napoleonic Wars, Belgium and the Netherlands became a single kingdom under the Dutch king while the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg became an independent country but part of the fiefdom of the Dutch king. In 1830 the Belgians rebelled and in 1839, under the Treaty of London, Belgian independence was recognised with Luxembourg being split into two - the French-speaking part becoming a Belgian province and the "Germanic"-speaking part retaining its indepence under the Dutch king. In 1890, Queen Wilhelmina ascended the Dutch throne. Luxembourg law did not recognise female monarchs, so the links with the Netherlands were broken. That is why we now have a Belgian province of Luxembourg and an independent Duchy of Luxembourg.

I did wonder why there was a Belgian province of Luxembourg, separate from the Duchy. Luxembourg was in customs union with the Empire of Germany up to the end of the First World War.

You are quite right - the Duchy joined the German Customs Union in 1842, some 29 years before the unification of Germany was complete. It is also interesting to note that Belgium has a province Brabant and the Netherlands has a province Noord-Brabant.

I had noticed both had a Brabant.

[Chris Bertram]

I did wonder why there was a Belgian province of Luxembourg, separate from the Duchy. Luxembourg was in customs union with the Empire of Germany up to the end of the First World War.

You are quite right - the Duchy joined the German Customs Union in 1842, some 29 years before the unification of Germany was complete. It is also interesting to note that Belgium has a province Brabant and the Netherlands has a province Noord-Brabant.

I had noticed both had a Brabant.

They do, but the Belgian province of Antwerp (Antwerpen/Anvers) is sandwiched in between.

[wallmeerkat]

Signs in Northern Ireland are in English only right up to the border, so Dublin is always Dublin and never Atha Cliath, but Ireland signs Belfast as Beal Feirste/Belfast, and Londonderry as Doire/Derry (no London south of the border). But I don't remember seeing GB or IRE ovals on either side.

Don't need ovals due to common travel area, and that it would be a hot potato that NI/RoI cars across the island are deemed 'foreign' in one or the other areas.

You'll sometimes see each area signpost road numbers for the other, eg N1 at Jonesborough - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0968235 ... 384!8i8192

N1(A1) at Dundalk https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0371649 ... 384!8i8192