Signposts to destinations over the border

[Marcomahony]

Please give examples of how this is done in other countries.

For example, do to road signs simply state a city across the border as if it were another destination along the route with no reference that it is in another country.

Or, do the signs say the destination with the foreign country in brackets, in France "Barcelona (ESP)"

Or is the foreign country simply signposted with no reference to destinations within it, for example 'Spain' signposted within Gibraltar

[Chris5156]

Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.

Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.

[nowster]

It seems that in the years following Schengen, it's gradually become more common in continental Europe to sign places across the border without reference to the countries they're in. There were still some remnants back in 2001 on the France/Spain border where sign bore the the country name (in the local language, eg. Basque, Catalan, Castilian) and not the town on the other side.

[FosseWay]

This one on the E65 in Ystad, in southern Sweden, is interesting (charitable interpretation) or typically inconsistent given Swedish signage more generally (more realistic).

The sign points you to ferries in three different countries.

Bornholm is an island the size of the Isle of Man, which is part of Denmark. The town the ferry goes to is Rønne.

Sassnitz is a town in Germany, on the island of Rügen.

Polen is the Swedish for Poland. Clearly Trafikverket didn't want to even try spelling Świnoujście, which is where you go if you take the ferry marked "Polen" (I've done it - very easy way to get to Berlin if you want to reduce the driving time).

[FosseWay]

In Gothenburg, they just sign the name of the destination town: Kiel (Germany) and Frederikshavn (Denmark). Until they started redeveloping the Frihamnen area, there were still some old signs in the same format pointing to Newcastle.

Riga and Tallinn seem to be treated the same way in Stockholm. The roads around the dock for Åland/Helsinki were in a state of chaos when the GSV car went through and there aren't any signs to anything anywhere. The ferries to St Petersburg go (went?) from the same quay as Riga but this appears to be a state secret as far as signage is concerned.

[Chris Bertram]

Much of the French-Belgian border is a language interface, with French on the, er, French side and Dutch (Flemish) on the Belgian side. The French use French names for Belgian destinations, so Ostende, Bruges, Bruxelles, La Panně, not Oostende, Brugge, Brussel and De Panne. Only in the case of Veurne do they include this in brackets after its French name, Furnes.

On the Belgian side it's Calais (perhaps there is no Dutch name for this) and Duinkerke (Dunkerque).

[Steven]

Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.

Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.

If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.

Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...

Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.

Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.

[Chris5156]

Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.

Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.

If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.

Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...

Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.

Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".

[exiled]

Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.

Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.

If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.

Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...

Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.

Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".

The Benelux countries just sign the city, in Belgium in accordance with the language policy of the region sending someone up to remove the O from Luxembourg

France doesn't appear to use the oval either and although increasingly France uses the local name it does not apply to Belgium.

To be fair to France the Dutch do the same.

For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.

[exiled]

Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.

Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.

If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.

Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...

Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.

Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.

Liechtenstein often appears to do things as if it was a Swiss Canton with a princely family, including the road signs. So if the Swiss put the oval on the sign to indicate a border crossing, so will Liechtenstein.

[Chris Bertram]

If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.

Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...

Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.

Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".

The Benelux countries just sign the city, in Belgium in accordance with the language policy of the region sending someone up to remove the O from Luxembourg

France doesn't appear to use the oval either and although increasingly France uses the local name it does not apply to Belgium.

To be fair to France the Dutch do the same.

For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.

Luik is, of course, Dutch/Flemish for Liège. IIRC, the Belgians sign Lille as Rijsel (Lille). This is a clue as to the origin of the French name, which was once L'isle, with the Dutch being 'R Ijsel, both meaning "the isle", similar to the Isle of Ely, an area of raised ground in an otherwise marshy area as Flanders is to a great extent.

The département of Nord includes parts of traditional Flanders. There used to be some Flemish still spoken in this area, and the place names suggest where this might be (Hondschoote, for instance), but whether this is still the case I don't know. The historic record of French promotion of the French language over other local languages suggests that it probably isn't.

[exiled]

Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.

Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".

The Benelux countries just sign the city, in Belgium in accordance with the language policy of the region sending someone up to remove the O from Luxembourg

France doesn't appear to use the oval either and although increasingly France uses the local name it does not apply to Belgium.

To be fair to France the Dutch do the same.

For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.

Luik is, of course, Dutch/Flemish for Liège. IIRC, the Belgians sign Lille as Rijsel (Lille). This is a clue as to the origin of the French name, which was once L'isle, with the Dutch being 'R Ijsel, both meaning "the isle", similar to the Isle of Ely, an area of raised ground in an otherwise marshy area as Flanders is to a great extent.

The département of Nord includes parts of traditional Flanders. There used to be some Flemish still spoken in this area, and the place names suggest where this might be (Hondschoote, for instance), but whether this is still the case I don't know. The historic record of French promotion of the French language over other local languages suggests that it probably isn't.

Though the NL does use Liege for Liege. That first sign is a lot older.

Yes, Flanders signs Rijsel (Lille) sort of a sop for international travellers. Nowadays it is much more a Flemish thing than a Walloon thing. Wallonia is more generous, using Aachen instead of Aix-la-Chapelle. Flanders uses the Aken (Aachen) formula. In fact the only place on that sign not signed in its own language is Antwerp. Come on Belgium it can't be that difficult, put Dutch names on all signs for places in Flanders, French for all in Wallonia, and what they call themselves for the neighbours.

As for Flemish in Nord, I understand it is still spoken by some and with modern media things like VRT are easily accessable. However I understand it is also has substantive differences even from the Flemish in West Flanders, let alone standard Nederlands.

[Chris Bertram]

Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.

[KeithW]

Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.

Even in 1944 the Americans reported the capture of Aachen.


If I recall correctly it was only during the Napoleonic period it was referred to as Aix-la-Chapelle.

[exiled]

Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.

Even in 1944 the Americans reported the capture of Aachen.


If I recall correctly it was only during the Napoleonic period it was referred to as Aix-la-Chapelle.

My mother calls it Aix-la-Chapelle and I can confirm when she was born France was a republic. It is only really since the 1970s that we have use Aachen rather than Aix-la-Chapelle, a recognition that it is in fact not in France. If we look at a map it is still very clear we often use French names, Milan, Turin, Venice, Rome, Brussels, Athens, when we can't be aardvarked to learn the local name.

[Owain]

Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.

Even in 1944 the Americans reported the capture of Aachen.[...]

If I recall correctly it was only during the Napoleonic period it was referred to as Aix-la-Chapelle.

My mother calls it Aix-la-Chapelle and I can confirm when she was born France was a republic. It is only really since the 1970s that we have use Aachen rather than Aix-la-Chapelle, a recognition that it is in fact not in France. If we look at a map it is still very clear we often use French names, Milan, Turin, Venice, Rome, Brussels, Athens, when we can't be aardvarked to learn the local name.

I'm still hoping to visit Constantinople one day.

[exiled]

I'm still hoping to visit Constantinople one day.

The Turks just preferred it that way

[multiraider2]

I've posted this twice before but the Italians on an E-route heading for the border, though some way ahead, do or at least did this:-

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5994686 ... 2!1b1!2i37

[Chris5156]

For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.

My gut feeling is that it's more likely a result of Greek direction signs being extremely ad hoc and often chaotic!

[FosseWay]

I'm still hoping to visit Constantinople one day.

The name of that city is a strange one. Under most of the period of Ottoman rule (1453-1922), it was known as Qustantiniya (or however you want to romanise قسطنطينيه), which is clearly derived from Konstantinoupolis. Judging from Ottoman coins, there was a brief period in the 18th century when it was either Istambol or Islambol (اسلامبول), the latter presumably being a "folk etymology" to link the name with the Ottoman Empire's religion.

The change to Istanbul in 1923 was part of Atatürk's policy of distancing modern Turkey from its Ottoman past; both names have been valid under Turkish rule.