Signposts to destinations over the border
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Signposts to destinations over the border
Please give examples of how this is done in other countries.
For example, do to road signs simply state a city across the border as if it were another destination along the route with no reference that it is in another country.
Or, do the signs say the destination with the foreign country in brackets, in France "Barcelona (ESP)"
Or is the foreign country simply signposted with no reference to destinations within it, for example 'Spain' signposted within Gibraltar
For example, do to road signs simply state a city across the border as if it were another destination along the route with no reference that it is in another country.
Or, do the signs say the destination with the foreign country in brackets, in France "Barcelona (ESP)"
Or is the foreign country simply signposted with no reference to destinations within it, for example 'Spain' signposted within Gibraltar
Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.
Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.
Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.
Chris
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
It seems that in the years following Schengen, it's gradually become more common in continental Europe to sign places across the border without reference to the countries they're in. There were still some remnants back in 2001 on the France/Spain border where sign bore the the country name (in the local language, eg. Basque, Catalan, Castilian) and not the town on the other side.
- FosseWay
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
This one on the E65 in Ystad, in southern Sweden, is interesting (charitable interpretation) or typically inconsistent given Swedish signage more generally (more realistic).
The sign points you to ferries in three different countries.
Bornholm is an island the size of the Isle of Man, which is part of Denmark. The town the ferry goes to is Rønne.
Sassnitz is a town in Germany, on the island of Rügen.
Polen is the Swedish for Poland. Clearly Trafikverket didn't want to even try spelling Świnoujście, which is where you go if you take the ferry marked "Polen" (I've done it - very easy way to get to Berlin if you want to reduce the driving time).
The sign points you to ferries in three different countries.
Bornholm is an island the size of the Isle of Man, which is part of Denmark. The town the ferry goes to is Rønne.
Sassnitz is a town in Germany, on the island of Rügen.
Polen is the Swedish for Poland. Clearly Trafikverket didn't want to even try spelling Świnoujście, which is where you go if you take the ferry marked "Polen" (I've done it - very easy way to get to Berlin if you want to reduce the driving time).
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- FosseWay
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
In Gothenburg, they just sign the name of the destination town: Kiel (Germany) and Frederikshavn (Denmark). Until they started redeveloping the Frihamnen area, there were still some old signs in the same format pointing to Newcastle.
Riga and Tallinn seem to be treated the same way in Stockholm. The roads around the dock for Åland/Helsinki were in a state of chaos when the GSV car went through and there aren't any signs to anything anywhere. The ferries to St Petersburg go (went?) from the same quay as Riga but this appears to be a state secret as far as signage is concerned.
Riga and Tallinn seem to be treated the same way in Stockholm. The roads around the dock for Åland/Helsinki were in a state of chaos when the GSV car went through and there aren't any signs to anything anywhere. The ferries to St Petersburg go (went?) from the same quay as Riga but this appears to be a state secret as far as signage is concerned.
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Much of the French-Belgian border is a language interface, with French on the, er, French side and Dutch (Flemish) on the Belgian side. The French use French names for Belgian destinations, so Ostende, Bruges, Bruxelles, La Panně, not Oostende, Brugge, Brussel and De Panne. Only in the case of Veurne do they include this in brackets after its French name, Furnes.
On the Belgian side it's Calais (perhaps there is no Dutch name for this) and Duinkerke (Dunkerque).
On the Belgian side it's Calais (perhaps there is no Dutch name for this) and Duinkerke (Dunkerque).
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 11:37 Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.
Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.
Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...
Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.
Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.Steven wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 18:55If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 11:37 Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.
Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.
Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...
Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.
Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.
Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".
Chris
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
The Benelux countries just sign the city, in Belgium in accordance with the language policy of the region sending someone up to remove the O from LuxembourgChris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 19:15Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.Steven wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 18:55If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 11:37 Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.
Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.
Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...
Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.
Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.
Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".
France doesn't appear to use the oval either and although increasingly France uses the local name it does not apply to Belgium.
To be fair to France the Dutch do the same.
For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Liechtenstein often appears to do things as if it was a Swiss Canton with a princely family, including the road signs. So if the Swiss put the oval on the sign to indicate a border crossing, so will Liechtenstein.Steven wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 18:55If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 11:37 Some countries use a white oval with the country code inside, which matches the stickers used to identify the nationality of vehicles.
Austria does this, as do Switzerland and Germany. Ukraine's new sign standards do the same but I don't think they're actually in use yet for obvious reasons.
Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...
Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.
Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Luik is, of course, Dutch/Flemish for Liège. IIRC, the Belgians sign Lille as Rijsel (Lille). This is a clue as to the origin of the French name, which was once L'isle, with the Dutch being 'R Ijsel, both meaning "the isle", similar to the Isle of Ely, an area of raised ground in an otherwise marshy area as Flanders is to a great extent.exiled wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 20:45The Benelux countries just sign the city, in Belgium in accordance with the language policy of the region sending someone up to remove the O from LuxembourgChris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 19:15Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.Steven wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 18:55 If memory serves, so (shockingly, I know) does Liechtenstein.
Italy signs "Repubblica di San Marino" in full, but I don't believe it does that with anywhere else, whilst in San Marino it's just the names of cities - again not shockingly as "Italia" would need to appear on pretty much every sign...
Andorra similarly signs "França" and "Espanya"; whilst Spain does sign "Andorra", but it's not completely clear if they mean the country or Andorra la Vella - I suspect it's the latter as they do sign French cities rather than France itself.
Everywhere else I've driven in Europe just uses city and town names in the local language of the sign as far as I can remember.
Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".
France doesn't appear to use the oval either and although increasingly France uses the local name it does not apply to Belgium.
To be fair to France the Dutch do the same.
For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.
The département of Nord includes parts of traditional Flanders. There used to be some Flemish still spoken in this area, and the place names suggest where this might be (Hondschoote, for instance), but whether this is still the case I don't know. The historic record of French promotion of the French language over other local languages suggests that it probably isn't.
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Though the NL does use Liege for Liege. That first sign is a lot older.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 21:02Luik is, of course, Dutch/Flemish for Liège. IIRC, the Belgians sign Lille as Rijsel (Lille). This is a clue as to the origin of the French name, which was once L'isle, with the Dutch being 'R Ijsel, both meaning "the isle", similar to the Isle of Ely, an area of raised ground in an otherwise marshy area as Flanders is to a great extent.exiled wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 20:45The Benelux countries just sign the city, in Belgium in accordance with the language policy of the region sending someone up to remove the O from LuxembourgChris5156 wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 19:15
Interestingly Luxembourg doesn't use the white oval either, as far as I can tell - it just names cities without worrying which country they're in. But then Luxembourg's signs are all over the show in terms of design anyway.
Greece is a movable feast - in some places it uses the country name (Turkey), in some the name of a city (Bitola, North Macedonia), and in others the very vague "Border Station".
France doesn't appear to use the oval either and although increasingly France uses the local name it does not apply to Belgium.
To be fair to France the Dutch do the same.
For your Greek examples I wonder if that is a result of Greece's relationship with its neighbours, use the place name in North Macedonia when they had the naming dispute, and just put up Turkey as Greek still calls Istanbul Constantinople.
The département of Nord includes parts of traditional Flanders. There used to be some Flemish still spoken in this area, and the place names suggest where this might be (Hondschoote, for instance), but whether this is still the case I don't know. The historic record of French promotion of the French language over other local languages suggests that it probably isn't.
Yes, Flanders signs Rijsel (Lille) sort of a sop for international travellers. Nowadays it is much more a Flemish thing than a Walloon thing. Wallonia is more generous, using Aachen instead of Aix-la-Chapelle. Flanders uses the Aken (Aachen) formula. In fact the only place on that sign not signed in its own language is Antwerp. Come on Belgium it can't be that difficult, put Dutch names on all signs for places in Flanders, French for all in Wallonia, and what they call themselves for the neighbours.
As for Flemish in Nord, I understand it is still spoken by some and with modern media things like VRT are easily accessable. However I understand it is also has substantive differences even from the Flemish in West Flanders, let alone standard Nederlands.
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
Even in 1944 the Americans reported the capture of Aachen.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 21:39 Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.
If I recall correctly it was only during the Napoleonic period it was referred to as Aix-la-Chapelle.
Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
My mother calls it Aix-la-Chapelle and I can confirm when she was born France was a republic. It is only really since the 1970s that we have use Aachen rather than Aix-la-Chapelle, a recognition that it is in fact not in France. If we look at a map it is still very clear we often use French names, Milan, Turin, Venice, Rome, Brussels, Athens, when we can't be aardvarked to learn the local name.KeithW wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 22:02Even in 1944 the Americans reported the capture of Aachen.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 21:39 Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.
If I recall correctly it was only during the Napoleonic period it was referred to as Aix-la-Chapelle.
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
I'm still hoping to visit Constantinople one day.exiled wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 22:18My mother calls it Aix-la-Chapelle and I can confirm when she was born France was a republic. It is only really since the 1970s that we have use Aachen rather than Aix-la-Chapelle, a recognition that it is in fact not in France. If we look at a map it is still very clear we often use French names, Milan, Turin, Venice, Rome, Brussels, Athens, when we can't be aardvarked to learn the local name.KeithW wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 22:02Even in 1944 the Americans reported the capture of Aachen.[...]Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 21:39Blimey, how long has it been since Aachen was known as Aix-la-Chapelle in everyday speech in any language? These days it's referred to by that name only in connection with a treaty signed in that city (was it to end the Thirty Years War?) and in celebration of which Handel wrote his Music for the Royal Fireworks.
If I recall correctly it was only during the Napoleonic period it was referred to as Aix-la-Chapelle.
Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
The Turks just preferred it that way
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- multiraider2
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
I've posted this twice before but the Italians on an E-route heading for the border, though some way ahead, do or at least did this:-
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5994686 ... 2!1b1!2i37
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5994686 ... 2!1b1!2i37
Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
My gut feeling is that it's more likely a result of Greek direction signs being extremely ad hoc and often chaotic!
Chris
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- FosseWay
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Re: Signposts to destinations over the border
The name of that city is a strange one. Under most of the period of Ottoman rule (1453-1922), it was known as Qustantiniya (or however you want to romanise قسطنطينيه), which is clearly derived from Konstantinoupolis. Judging from Ottoman coins, there was a brief period in the 18th century when it was either Istambol or Islambol (اسلامبول), the latter presumably being a "folk etymology" to link the name with the Ottoman Empire's religion.
The change to Istanbul in 1923 was part of Atatürk's policy of distancing modern Turkey from its Ottoman past; both names have been valid under Turkish rule.
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