Stalled temporary lights

[qwertyK]

Approached a set of temporary traffic lights. Was waiting there for several minutes. Got out to see what was going on and some roadworks truck was in the road. I started noticing Cars on the other side were just mounting the pavement . I couldn't see much in front of me, there was another unrelated truck which started moving forward along with other cars, so I followed but the light was red, but the road was clear. To be honest I'm not worried about a fine or anything but is there the four minute rule or another X minute related rule to follow before you begin to edge forward cautiously? The road worker told me all the cars were jumping the lights and they were supposed to be red for ten minutes. I don't think he noticed me jumping them, seems daft why not just close off the road.

[tom66]

Legally, no. You can only pass a red traffic signal on direction of a constable or (I believe) a traffic officer. If you want to take the strictest legal interpretation you must sit there, with your handbrake on, and dial 101 or the local police station and ask for a police officer to come out and direct you through traffic. Anything else would legally open you up to 3 points and a £100 fine.

However, I doubt that you will find yourself being fined if you pass with caution, an obviously stuck signal. You will need to negotiate with opposing flows.

[Bomag]

Approached a set of temporary traffic lights. Was waiting there for several minutes. Got out to see what was going on and some roadworks truck was in the road. I started noticing Cars on the other side were just mounting the pavement . I couldn't see much in front of me, there was another unrelated truck which started moving forward along with other cars, so I followed but the light was red, but the road was clear. To be honest I'm not worried about a fine or anything but is there the four minute rule or another X minute related rule to follow before you begin to edge forward cautiously? The road worker told me all the cars were jumping the lights and they were supposed to be red for ten minutes. I don't think he noticed me jumping them, seems daft why not just close off the road.

All red operations are covered in TSM Chapter 8 Part 1 D5.13. There should be an operator at each signal - see D5.13.6. A all-red period of more than about 10 min would be considered a road closure. I would have though the sign which says wait here while the red light is shown was fairly easy to understand.

[Bomag]

Legally, no. You can only pass a red traffic signal on direction of a constable or (I believe) a traffic officer. If you want to take the strictest legal interpretation you must sit there, with your handbrake on, and dial 101 or the local police station and ask for a police officer to come out and direct you through traffic. Anything else would legally open you up to 3 points and a £100 fine.

However, I doubt that you will find yourself being fined if you pass with caution, an obviously stuck signal. You will need to negotiate with opposing flows.

Also you can pass a red light when a Diagram 7019 signs is displayed.

[qwertyK]

Approached a set of temporary traffic lights. Was waiting there for several minutes. Got out to see what was going on and some roadworks truck was in the road. I started noticing Cars on the other side were just mounting the pavement . I couldn't see much in front of me, there was another unrelated truck which started moving forward along with other cars, so I followed but the light was red, but the road was clear. To be honest I'm not worried about a fine or anything but is there the four minute rule or another X minute related rule to follow before you begin to edge forward cautiously? The road worker told me all the cars were jumping the lights and they were supposed to be red for ten minutes. I don't think he noticed me jumping them, seems daft why not just close off the road.

All red operations are covered in TSM Chapter 8 Part 1 D5.13. There should be an operator at each signal - see D5.13.6. A all-red period of more than about 10 min would be considered a road closure. I would have though the sign which says wait here while the red light is shown was fairly easy to understand.

It was definitely red for around ten minutes as it was red when I got there. They'd actually been frozen as I later saw them fiddling around. I always wait at red temporary lights even at night but I think I'd have been subject to abuse if I'd stayed and hadn't moved with the rest lol

[traffic-light-man]

Also you can pass a red light when a Diagram 7019 signs is displayed.

Do you have a reference for that?

[Big L]

Also you can pass a red light when a Diagram 7019 signs is displayed.

Do you have a reference for that?

(I had to Google it) Diag 7019 -a sign that info “Traffic signals not in use”.

[traffic-light-man]

(I had to Google it) Diag 7019 -a sign that info “Traffic signals not in use”.

Yes, I just wasn't aware that the regulations or RTA provided an exemption to a red signal when the sign to 7019 is displayed.

[qwertyK]

I know for sure the lights were definitely frozen because there was no traffic coming from the other direction. Cars on that side began to mount the pavement and then so did cars on my side. I stayed just ahead of the red light . I'm sure it the workers actually told people what was going on we wouldn't have been left to think the lights had actually stopped due to a defect

[Bomag]

(I had to Google it) Diag 7019 -a sign that info “Traffic signals not in use”.

Yes, I just wasn't aware that the regulations or RTA provided an exemption to a red signal when the sign to 7019 is displayed.

It doesn't, but if a contractor or authority displays Dia 7019 the signal has no meaning under RTA Section 36 as the signal is not in use.

[Bomag]

I know for sure the lights were definitely frozen because there was no traffic coming from the other direction. Cars on that side began to mount the pavement and then so did cars on my side. I stayed just ahead of the red light . I'm sure it the workers actually told people what was going on we wouldn't have been left to think the lights had actually stopped due to a defect

All two way traffic signal have a part of the cycle where red is shown in both directions, this does not mean the lights were frozen. All-red working allows this to be extended from the time taken to traffic to clear the section to 5 mins (recommended) or 10 mins max. If signals freeze they should be turned off and stop/go boards used (red book page 63). From the description it was a planned all red activity.

[qwertyK]

Why not just close the road off for the duration though is why I didn't get. I wonder if they report red light jumpers. Apparently ringways in worcestershire do but this was virgin media of all people.

They obviously froze it themselves but only found this out after. I just followed the guidance of treating it as an unmarked crossroads etc

[traffic-light-man]

It doesn't, but if a contractor or authority displays Dia 7019 the signal has no meaning under RTA Section 36 as the signal is not in use.

I'm not sure I agree with that. My personal view is that the signal being lit means it is in use whether intended or not, and therefore supersedes the sign, which is only providing information anyway.

In my mind, the only time the signal ceases being a legally relevant traffic sign, lit or not, is when it's bagged off or made not visible in some other way that prevents it being interpreted.

Either way, I wouldn't want to test it - someone else is likely to be obeying the corresponding signals...

[Bomag]

It doesn't, but if a contractor or authority displays Dia 7019 the signal has no meaning under RTA Section 36 as the signal is not in use.

I'm not sure I agree with that. My personal view is that the signal being lit means it is in use whether intended or not, and therefore supersedes the sign, which is only providing information anyway.

In my mind, the only time the signal ceases being a legally relevant traffic sign, lit or not, is when it's bagged off or made not visible in some other way that prevents it being interpreted.

Either way, I wouldn't want to test it - someone else is likely to be obeying the corresponding signals...

Any signal with Dia 7019 would need to be treated as proceed with caution. No competent contractor would place a diagram 7019 at a 'live' signal, although enough incompetent ones are around which is why draft pink book replacement covers this. If there is still a need to control traffic then this would need to via stop/go boards, which is why the red book mandates their presence. While bagging off is acceptable, it makes no difference as to Dia 7019.

[Bomag]

Why not just close the road off for the duration though is why I didn't get. I wonder if they report red light jumpers. Apparently ringways in worcestershire do but this was virgin media of all people.

They obviously froze it themselves but only found this out after. I just followed the guidance of treating it as an unmarked crossroads etc

Over 10 mins would require a TTRO and a full signed closure and diversion. All-red working is similar to the use of the 'Stop works' sign in that its is controlling traffic and not closing the road.

The signal was not frozen, that would mean that it was not capable of continuing the sequence, setting a long all-red is not frozen.

[qwertyK]

I don't know I think it must have had a TTRO because the other day it WAS shut and there was a diversion.

Hypothetically speaking I know it's extremely unlikely anything will come of it and I'm sure it would make an interesting test case....if someone did report me (and presumably half a dozen or so other drivers) in my defence could I argue that the traffic lights weren't actually functioning as traffic lights per se, the road was actually closed and thus it would not be a case of a TS10. This wasn't a case of impatience, and I wasn't the first driver to make a move. From what I could see at the time it appeared to be a fault because there was no traffic in the opposite direction. The road worker actually told me after I crossed the stop line (I don't think he noticed I didbor maybe he didn't count it as jumping the lights because I didn't mount the pavement) that they had to stop the lights for ten minutes for their truck. That would suggest a closure of some sort. All the roadworkers would have needed to do was put a road closed and diversion sign or just explain to the drivers that the road would be closed temporarily, not after people have assumed there is a fault with the lights and crossed. I've never encountered this before it's very weird

[Conekicker]

When "All red" is being used, as Bomag says, there needs to be an operative at each signal, to explain to drivers what is happening. It's also a good idea to put a couple of cones across the otherwise open lane to discourage naughty behaviour. Sounds like the contractor failed on both counts. You pay peanuts...

Edit: There's nothing to stop an S13-9 sign (white on red) being placed, saying something like "TEMPORARY OBSTRUCTION AHEAD 10 MINUTES DELAY" to inform drivers of the score, which would be a sensible move if the operative couldn't be present all of the time.

TOA.pdf

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[qwertyK]

When "All red" is being used, as Bomag says, there needs to be an operative at each signal, to explain to drivers what is happening. It's also a good idea to put a couple of cones across the otherwise open lane to discourage naughty behaviour. Sounds like the contractor failed on both counts. You pay peanuts...

Edit: There's nothing to stop an S13-9 sign (white on red) being placed, saying something like "TEMPORARY OBSTRUCTION AHEAD 10 MINUTES DELAY" to inform drivers of the score, which would be a sensible move if the operative couldn't be present all of the time.

The operative definitrely could be they were just standing around in the middle of the road. It would be interesting if hypothetically something did happen in the form of a NIP and challenging it on this basis.

[Chris5156]

They obviously froze it themselves but only found this out after. I just followed the guidance of treating it as an unmarked crossroads etc

What guidance is that?

[qwertyK]

They obviously froze it themselves but only found this out after. I just followed the guidance of treating it as an unmarked crossroads etc

What guidance is that?

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-wor ... 584607.amp