Why did East Germany place storage buildings on the A4 between Bautzen and Weissenberg?

[RichardA626]

I heard that it was possible to leave the train at one of the U-Bahn stations on a line that crossed into in the east, but only to access an Intershop there.

I think it probably shows how desperate the East were for hard currency. Surely this would have been one of the easiest ways for East Germans to attempt to escape, or was this station in the East set up only to serve West Berlin passengers via an Intershop with it being inaccessible to ordinary East Germans?

The latter, I believe. Although East Germans were allowed to visit Intershops, it would draw attention to yourself, particularly as all the staff were Stasi employees.

You could also commit the crime of associating with Western foreigners, or possessing hard currency (during the times when that was restricted).

I heard East Germans were allowed to receive hard currently when allowed to work abroad or sent at a remittance from relatives in other countries, I presume this had to be paid into an approved account rather than in cash.

[Berk]

At the Staatsbank, I believe, yes. I imagine it would be “helpfully” converted to Ostmarks, though.

[Bryn666]

It depends on the era, after 1979 all foreign currency held by East Germans had to be converted into Forum Checks which didn't offer a particularly competitive exchange rate but would be accepted in Intershops where you could then be reported to the MfS for being a decadent western sympathiser.

Quite why the tankie mindset thinks this is a viable model for society is anyone's guess.

[exiled]

It depends on the era, after 1979 all foreign currency held by East Germans had to be converted into Forum Checks which didn't offer a particularly competitive exchange rate but would be accepted in Intershops where you could then be reported to the MfS for being a decadent western sympathiser.

Quite why the tankie mindset thinks this is a viable model for society is anyone's guess.

A lot of the tankies believe the GDR was the 'democratic' one. Came across one though compared Denmark and the GDR saying the GDR was better for its citizens than Denmark because it was a proper socialist state. Can't remember when Denmark used to shoot people trying to leave the country, or the Danish having a comprehensive security system to scare its citizens silly.

[Bryn666]

It depends on the era, after 1979 all foreign currency held by East Germans had to be converted into Forum Checks which didn't offer a particularly competitive exchange rate but would be accepted in Intershops where you could then be reported to the MfS for being a decadent western sympathiser.

Quite why the tankie mindset thinks this is a viable model for society is anyone's guess.

A lot of the tankies believe the GDR was the 'democratic' one. Came across one though compared Denmark and the GDR saying the GDR was better for its citizens than Denmark because it was a proper socialist state. Can't remember when Denmark used to shoot people trying to leave the country, or the Danish having a comprehensive security system to scare its citizens silly.

Yes, but when you're all unified under one machine gun pointing at you, that is true utopia! No dissent, no questioning, just happy for your loaf of bread...

[bothar]

In 2013 I went to Berlin again and visited the Berlin Wall Memorial on Bernauer Strasse. It is best accessed from Nordbahnhof which was a ghost station and has a display about them in the station building https://www.berlin.de/mauer/en/sites/mu ... n-station/

Nordbahnhof captures some of the changes in Berlin as it was originally Stettiner Bahnhof and then ended up in the East on the north-south underground S-Bahn line that ran thorugh the East for a bit, hence its ghost status.
When I first went to Berlin the wall was on Bernauer Strasse, I went back 10 years later and while the preserved wall was there there wasn't much sign of the division otherwise. But one tell tale sign was the turning circle for the tram at the end of Eberswalder Str. (if you poke about in Streetview in the trees you can see a wall era death zone streetlight still there) . When I went back in 2007 the tram line had been extended along Bernauer Strasse to the Nordhahnhof (it is had been in 1945) so the turning circle was redundant.

[RichardA626]

It depends on the era, after 1979 all foreign currency held by East Germans had to be converted into Forum Checks which didn't offer a particularly competitive exchange rate but would be accepted in Intershops where you could then be reported to the MfS for being a decadent western sympathiser.

Quite why the tankie mindset thinks this is a viable model for society is anyone's guess.

A lot of the tankies believe the GDR was the 'democratic' one. Came across one though compared Denmark and the GDR saying the GDR was better for its citizens than Denmark because it was a proper socialist state. Can't remember when Denmark used to shoot people trying to leave the country, or the Danish having a comprehensive security system to scare its citizens silly.

I encounter them from time to time on Facebook, usually mentally still stuck in the 1970s when this might have been a valid mindset.

[roadtester]

The GDR regime was a vile dictatorship that made the lives of many of its citizens utterly miserable but there were a few areas in which it was, in its way, somewhat enlightened and progressive. The most notable and widely recognised of these was the promotion of the role of women in the world of work and society in general, with access to services like abortion and in particular childcare probably being somewhat better than in the West.

There is also a degree of nostalgia towards aspects of life the GDR. It’s important not to mistake that for an endorsement of the old system or a desire to turn back the clock - hardly anyone wants that. But there is a feeling that life back then was simpler and less consumerist, and that there was perhaps a greater sense of community in the face of adversity, somewhat analogous to the Dunkirk or Blitz spirit in wartime Britain, with people pulling together and helping each other to overcome challenges and the general crapness of everyday life. Some people seem to miss that sense of closeness now that they live in a more atomised capitalist society, even one that delivers the sort of freedom, opportunity and prosperity that a planned economy never could.

[Berk]

A movie I must try to see is: The Legend of Paul and Paula.

It’s meant to be one of the most popular and realistic films set in East Germany.

[Berk]

The GDR regime was a vile dictatorship that made the lives of many of its citizens utterly miserable but there were a few areas in which it was, in its way, somewhat enlightened and progressive. The most notable and widely recognised of these was the promotion of the role of women in the world of work and society in general, with access to services like abortion and in particular childcare probably being somewhat better than in the West.

There is also a degree of nostalgia towards aspects of life the GDR. It’s important not to mistake that for an endorsement of the old system or a desire to turn back the clock - hardly anyone wants that. But there is a feeling that life back then was simpler and less consumerist, and that there was perhaps a greater sense of community in the face of adversity, somewhat analogous to the Dunkirk or Blitz spirit in wartime Britain, with people pulling together and helping each other to overcome challenges and the general crapness of everyday life. Some people seem to miss that sense of closeness now that they live in a more atomised capitalist society, even one that delivers the sort of freedom, opportunity and prosperity that a planned economy never could.

I would like to think that if reunification had been delayed, or had not happened at the time it did, that the East German regime would’ve kept some of those ideals in place, and hopefully become less repressive over time.

We will never truly know…

[bothar]

I would like to think that if reunification had been delayed, or had not happened at the time it did, that the East German regime would’ve kept some of those ideals in place, and hopefully become less repressive over time.

We will never truly know…

Russia didn't.

[roadtester]

I would like to think that if reunification had been delayed, or had not happened at the time it did, that the East German regime would’ve kept some of those ideals in place, and hopefully become less repressive over time.

We will never truly know…

You are touching here on a very interesting aspect of the events of 1989/90. There was strand of opinion that was asking whether the GDR should necessarily unite with West Germany and might not instead develop in a democratic direction independently. Many East Germans, while in favour of unification, resented the fact that it was basically a takeover by, rather than a merger with, the West, with the GDR essentially being what would, in corporate terms, be called a bolt-on acquisition for the BRD. The existing West German Basic Law foresaw the possible eventuality of new Länder joining the republic in the context of unification, and this was the procedure that was used. Many would have preferred a new settlement with a new constitution drawn up by both (former) East and West Germans.

One, probably decisive, argument for doing things the way they were done was timing. Helmut Kohl, probably rightly, guessed that the window for unification was fleeting. The UK and France were reluctant and Gorbachev was probably the only conceivable Russian/Soviet leader who would let it happen. That meant the opportunity had to be seized immediately leaving little or no time for discussions of alternative models of democratisation or unification.

[Bryn666]

On the flip side many small c conservative types in West Germany also resented the expenditure needed to bring the DDR up to even early 1980s standards in many places - my dad's best friend in 1989 had formerly been stationed in the BRD and his friends were over here pointing this out.

Still, I think Europe is stronger for having a unified Germany than it ever would have been with two Germanies, especially one that could've developed more pro-Putinist leanings today.

[exiled]

On the flip side many small c conservative types in West Germany also resented the expenditure needed to bring the DDR up to even early 1980s standards in many places - my dad's best friend in 1989 had formerly been stationed in the BRD and his friends were over here pointing this out.

Still, I think Europe is stronger for having a unified Germany than it ever would have been with two Germanies, especially one that could've developed more pro-Putinist leanings today.

In the alt-hist world that could have happened to, and it is something very possible, is the GDR could have been prey for an extremist party more than in this world if the prosperity was slow in coming. Not just in comparison with the FRG, but also with Poland and the Czech Republic.

[bothar]

You are touching here on a very interesting aspect of the events of 1989/90. There was strand of opinion that was asking whether the GDR should necessarily unite with West Germany and might not instead develop in a democratic direction independently. Many East Germans, while in favour of unification, resented the fact that it was basically a takeover by, rather than a merger with, the West, with the GDR essentially being what would, in corporate terms, be called a bolt-on acquisition for the BRD. The existing West German Basic Law foresaw the possible eventuality of new Länder joining the republic in the context of unification, and this was the procedure that was used. Many would have preferred a new settlement with a new constitution drawn up by both (former) East and West Germans.

East Germany might have had more liberal policies, but it was going to be a lot poorer than the West and the problem was the problem that it always had, its people would simply leave and go to the West. In addition, there was little interest in having 1950s style customs checks on Potsdamer Platz in Berlin, but without that the economic differentials would have had a massive effect. It might have been a bit of takeover, but the East was expecting large handouts from the West and he who pays the piper calls the tune.
On an aside, the DDR anthem had the same beat as the West German one and there was a suggestion of keeping some of the words, which were actually oriented toward a united Germany. This didn't happen either.

[Chris Bertram]

I have seen it seriously suggested that the DDR anthem was written to fit Haydn's Emperor's Hymn, the tune of the BRD anthem. This isn't right, while the meter is about right, the DDR words have too many lines per verse.

But in any case, in the later years the DDR words were dropped altogether, since they aspired to a united Germany that had officially been given up on, and only the tune was played.

[roadtester]

You are touching here on a very interesting aspect of the events of 1989/90. There was strand of opinion that was asking whether the GDR should necessarily unite with West Germany and might not instead develop in a democratic direction independently. Many East Germans, while in favour of unification, resented the fact that it was basically a takeover by, rather than a merger with, the West, with the GDR essentially being what would, in corporate terms, be called a bolt-on acquisition for the BRD. The existing West German Basic Law foresaw the possible eventuality of new Länder joining the republic in the context of unification, and this was the procedure that was used. Many would have preferred a new settlement with a new constitution drawn up by both (former) East and West Germans.

East Germany might have had more liberal policies, but it was going to be a lot poorer than the West and the problem was the problem that it always had, its people would simply leave and go to the West. In addition, there was little interest in having 1950s style customs checks on Potsdamer Platz in Berlin, but without that the economic differentials would have had a massive effect. It might have been a bit of takeover, but the East was expecting large handouts from the West and he who pays the piper calls the tune.
On an aside, the DDR anthem had the same beat as the West German one and there was a suggestion of keeping some of the words, which were actually oriented toward a united Germany. This didn't happen either.

Of course, there was massive migration to the West anyway, even with unification and huge amounts of what in the UK context would be called levelling up cash going East!

I think the ideas of a continuing democratic GDR were mainly associated with the more reform minded types within the ruling SED. I suppose they thought there was a small baby in that large amount of dirty GDR bath water that was worth not throwing out - a free, democratic but more communitarian Germany.

I have to say that for all of the problems of expense, frictions and resentments, the Germans have done a great job of closing much of the East/West gap in a few decades. It puts the hopeless efforts of at least the post-2010 UK government in reducing regional disparities here to shame.

[Berk]

Is the federal govt still paying Solidarity funds??

[WHBM]

I've written about my various visits to Eastern Europe before I think.

East Berlin in the 1980s was not as appalling as regularly portrayed by those who didn't visit there at all, there were many pleasant restaurants, and the bulk of those in there were locals from the city. They were of course cheaper than in West Berlin, which itself was getting more down-at-heel in this time.

The Intershops had mushroomed, doubtless as foreign currency expanded. Most of this came as Deutsche Marks from families over in West Germany. They were the only place where you could spend western currency. You had to exchange 25DM per day at 1:1 at the border when visiting East Berlin, but I always spent that and more in pleasant bars and restaurants, a number of which are notably still there.

The Underground ("U-Bahn") had some oddball arrangements because of The Wall, one line started in the West, passed unseen under The East, and back to The West. All the intermediate East stations were closed, locked, and non-stop, apart from one which was the main route up through the controls into The East. Many passengers were just riding through from one part of The West to the other. On the station platform there was a large Intershop, which one could stop off at and go shopping, in DM, without entering The East through the controls up above. Prices just a bit less than in The West. Principal purchase seemed to be cigarettes - not East brands, but mainly Marlboro.

One Intershop specialised in an enormous display of Praktica cameras, from the old Zeiss works in Dresden where as I had one then I bought a range of zoom lenses and flash guns - with Sterling, which was solemnly converted on from DM without additional commission. But the small amount of change was only in Ostmarks ! Western currency was NEVER given back.

[Berk]

One of the reasons the East ended up heavily in the red, was that from 1981 the Soviets heavily reduced (or stopped) imports of crude oil and fuel at subsidised rates.

This was done for political reasons, I think, partly due to disapproval of the DDR becoming more politically open to the BRD due to Ostpolitik.

Either way it lead to a deeper economic slowdown at the same time the rest of Europe was struggling as well. Investment in housing and transport and imported goods slowed, but food, transport and basic goods subsidies were maintained.

That’s also one of the reasons the minimum exchange was increased (from 15 to 25 DM per person per day).