RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
Did the East German authorities provide a map (potentially in exchange for hard currency which they were short of) to Western travellers detailing the transit routes?
I don't recall ever seeing any maps, but there may have been. We knew the permitted route anyway, but not everyone would have done.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
The Catholic Church also still had a lot of influence on the people of Poland despite it having a communist government.
It was well known in Poland that many communist officials would "secretly" take their children to church in other parts of the country (usually in more rural areas) for Christenings, First Communions etc. where they would not be rumbled by colleagues. There are probably more atheists in Poland now than during communism.
roadtester wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 21:43I think those are all likely considerations but another reason for not bothering with fixing the bridge was probably that as an east-west route cut off by the border, the A4 would have become less important in East Germany which would have been reorientating its transport networks around radials from Berlin.
Of course, it would have reachieved relevance with the dissolution of the inner German border.
Yes, I think the East really wanted to airbrush the West as far as it could (tv was one area which they couldn’t, the signals covering a very long way across the border).
Except of course when they wanted to accept West German money for building their own motorways - such as the A24 from Berlin to Hamburg.
I further believe that prisoner exchanges, when political prisoners were “sold” to the West German government who bought their freedom, also funded autobahn upgrades.
You also have to remember that the DDR was almost completely broke in 1989. It was running a deficit of DM 100bn (or €50bn in today’s money). I dread to think what would’ve happened if unification talks had failed.
The fact that West German TV was receivable in most of the GDR seems to have forced the eastern broadcaster to be more adventurous than they might otherwise have been, so there were actual funny comedy shows and even mild satire concerning government figures, and current affairs programmes which, while criticising the decadent west as expected, gave their own ministers a hard time too.
There were dead spots for western reception, the biggest being around Dresden. Stories abound of GDR citizens taking portable TV receivers up to the hills to catch important shows. How true these are I don't know.
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Probably a bit of an urban myth, don’t forget that watching tv in the open air would immediately draw attention to yourself. Although they have been able to smuggle videos across the border somehow, or even via Czechoslovakia.
Of course the decision was made to set a different colour standard from the start: SECAM as per its eastern neighbours, but as the broadcast standard was still B/G, you could receive in black-and-white. By the 1980s, most East Germans owned dual-standard sets anyway.
As I was explaining on one of the other threads where this came up, most of the entertainment shows on GDR TV had very little in the way of political messaging. They knew nobody would watch if they did that. A notable example was the crime series Polizeiruf 110, which was designed to compete with the western Tatort for appeal. Acting/scripts/plot were of a high quality and propaganda was mostly absent. In fact many social themes - alcoholism, child abuse and so on were confronted and addressed in quite a nuanced fashion that didn’t remotely try to suggest that the GDR was a socialist paradise where this sort of thing wasn’t going on.
roadtester wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 21:07
As I was explaining on one of the other threads where this came up, most of the entertainment shows on GDR TV had very little in the way of political messaging. They knew nobody would watch if they did that. A notable example was the crime series Polizeiruf 110, which was designed to compete with the western Tatort for appeal. Acting/scripts/plot were of a high quality and propaganda was mostly absent. In fact many social themes - alcoholism, child abuse and so on were confronted and addressed in quite a nuanced fashion that didn’t remotely try to suggest that the GDR was a socialist paradise where this sort of thing wasn’t going on.
Light entertainment is often given a light tough in a authoritarian state, and drama is allowed to cover the difficult subjects you pointed out partly for the 'entertain, educate and inform' role public broadcasters in the west role did and still do. In part this was to keep the viewers for the propaganda programmes, especially in the DDR where the (and you'll correct my German!) phrase 'hier ist das Eerste Deutsche Fernsehn mit der Taggeshau' was a very commonly heard phrase before the evening news.
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RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
Did the East German authorities provide a map (potentially in exchange for hard currency which they were short of) to Western travellers detailing the transit routes?
In his autobiography "The Outsider", Frederick Forsythe describes his trips into East Germany. It appears that the road was clearly signposted. On one of his trips, MI6 supplied him with a special battery for his car. The battery was not as high as the usual battery and he was able to hide the documents that were in a briefcase that he "accidently" picked up instead of his own while in a Berlin museum. His problem was actually stopping to put the documents there before he got to the border where he expected to be searched. No need for maps then - just follow the road - if you didn't, the Stasi would!
That would’ve been in the early 1960s. Border facilities were rudimentary then, with just a single file of traffic. Unless there were glaring suspicions, it was more likely people would be waved through.
By the 1970s, MSA-style border and customs areas were set up on either side, and multiple queuing lanes, so many more cars could be inspected.
Some of the transit routes I used in the 1970s included S2 roads and not all were motorways, such as from Hamburg to Prague, with an overnight stop in Leipzig. I booked overnight stops through the state tourist board in London and then applied for transit visas to the embassy, with proof of my hotel bookings. I received a map with my hotel bookings that showed where I could buy fuel on my journey that I've still got somewhere.
I was stopped twice for not being on a transit route, once between Hamburg and Leipzig and the other when I too took a wrong turning onto the wrong section of the Berliner Ring. On both occasions I was sent back to the correct route. I "accidently" took the wrong route after we left Leipzig and was heading towards Dresden and the border crossing to Czechoslovakia. I wanted to see Colditz Castle as the TV programme Colditz about WWII prisoners of war and their escapes was very popular in the UK at that time. It wasn't on a transit route and I knew I could only drive past and look as I would be pushing my luck too far if I got out to have a look around, but I got away with my unofficial deviation and wasn't stopped.
It all seems pointless now when I can drive down any road in the former East Germany and nobody bats an eyelid.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
Did the East German authorities provide a map (potentially in exchange for hard currency which they were short of) to Western travellers detailing the transit routes?
I don't recall ever seeing any maps, but there may have been. We knew the permitted route anyway, but not everyone would have done.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
The Catholic Church also still had a lot of influence on the people of Poland despite it having a communist government.
It was well known in Poland that many communist officials would "secretly" take their children to church in other parts of the country (usually in more rural areas) for Christenings, First Communions etc. where they would not be rumbled by colleagues. There are probably more atheists in Poland now than during communism.
Is this the sort of condition that you remember some of the worst stretches of transit Autobahn being like? It's kind of what I get the impression that many of East Germany's less significant major routes were like based on the satellite imagery I found.
Berk wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 03:26
Some of our roads are getting as bad as that these days.
I wouldn't say our roads are as bad as in East Germany, but they are definitely falling behind many of our European neighbours. Many of Ireland's modern roads feel a higher standard than our own despite then receiving a fraction of the traffic.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
Did the East German authorities provide a map (potentially in exchange for hard currency which they were short of) to Western travellers detailing the transit routes?
I don't recall ever seeing any maps, but there may have been. We knew the permitted route anyway, but not everyone would have done.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:48
The Catholic Church also still had a lot of influence on the people of Poland despite it having a communist government.
It was well known in Poland that many communist officials would "secretly" take their children to church in other parts of the country (usually in more rural areas) for Christenings, First Communions etc. where they would not be rumbled by colleagues. There are probably more atheists in Poland now than during communism.
Is this the sort of condition that you remember some of the worst stretches of transit Autobahn being like? It's kind of what I get the impression that many of East Germany's less significant major routes were like based on the satellite imagery I found.
Most of the vehicles on the road look to be probably West German, though it's clearly in the East.
The Autobahn from the west to Berlin had a passable surface by the late 80s when I remember it, I don’t think it was concrete by then, although some of it may have just been the original concrete overlaid with a newer surface.
Further east it was original Nazi-era concrete with big bumps between the badly aligned slabs (very irritating when this goes on for an hour or two).
Although we only took the more southerly route once, I think a lot of it was similar to the photo. Having said that, I remember even the better sections west of Berlin had regular very bad sections over bridges for example with speed limits down from 100km/h to perhaps 60 or even 40. You quickly learned that these were not a joke, either by hitting a bump very hard or being caught by a radar trap and having to shell out hard currency to be let on your way.
I don't recall ever seeing any maps, but there may have been. We knew the permitted route anyway, but not everyone would have done.
It was well known in Poland that many communist officials would "secretly" take their children to church in other parts of the country (usually in more rural areas) for Christenings, First Communions etc. where they would not be rumbled by colleagues. There are probably more atheists in Poland now than during communism.
Is this the sort of condition that you remember some of the worst stretches of transit Autobahn being like? It's kind of what I get the impression that many of East Germany's less significant major routes were like based on the satellite imagery I found.
Most of the vehicles on the road look to be probably West German, though it's clearly in the East.
The Autobahn from the west to Berlin had a passable surface by the late 80s when I remember it, I don’t think it was concrete by then, although some of it may have just been the original concrete overlaid with a newer surface.
Further east it was original Nazi-era concrete with big bumps between the badly aligned slabs (very irritating when this goes on for an hour or two).
Although we only took the more southerly route once, I think a lot of it was similar to the photo. Having said that, I remember even the better sections west of Berlin had regular very bad sections over bridges for example with speed limits down from 100km/h to perhaps 60 or even 40. You quickly learned that these were not a joke, either by hitting a bump very hard or being caught by a radar trap and having to shell out hard currency to be let on your way.
The Stasi were well known for enforcing East German speed limits on Western drivers extremely strictly. They wanted hard currency which they could obtain through on the spot fines. Other methods of obtaining hard currency included manufacturing goods for sale in the West, receiving money from West Germany in exchange for the deportation of dissidents, and taking money in exchange for Western drug trials.
I remember that the user KeithW once posted a photo here showing two casually dressed men taking photos of his group while in East Germany, and he was very confident that they were Stasi officials.
JosephA22 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:38
......You quickly learned that these were not a joke, either by hitting a bump very hard or being caught by a radar trap and having to shell out hard currency to be let on your way.
It was the same when driving over a level crossing or tram tracks. Any more than walking pace could be very nasty and it also gave you a chance to steer around the worst bits.
There were some sections of motorway in Poland built by the Nazis that lasted well into the 21st century, such as the A18. The Wikipedia page has a photo of a section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A18_autostrada_(Poland)
Much as I dislike them, you have to give the Nazis credit for the quality of their roads to have lasted so long.
Octaviadriver wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 16:26
There were some sections of motorway in Poland built by the Nazis that lasted well into the 21st century, such as the A18. The Wikipedia page has a photo of a section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A18_autostrada_(Poland)
Much as I dislike them, you have to give the Nazis credit for the quality of their roads to have lasted so long.
I think the Nazis used concrete to build their Autobahns, whereas most modern roads are built with tarmac, which is smoother and less noisy to drive on but probably less durable.
I know that most of the Reichsautobahn in their later years of use (I believe the 1950s onwards) were retrofitted with white dashed lane markings in both the BRD and DDR (West and East), but most of the Nazi-era photos of them show them with what could be a solid black lane marking. Did they originally have a black marking or no markings, with the black section in the middle simply being a seam between two concrete panels? This is what I mean:
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 17:19I know that most of the Reichsautobahn in their later years of use (I believe the 1950s onwards) were retrofitted with white dashed lane markings in both the BRD and DDR (West and East), but most of the Nazi-era photos of them show them with what could be a solid black lane marking. Did they originally have a black marking or no markings, with the black section in the middle simply being a seam between two concrete panels? This is what I mean:
In that and other photos, it's always looked like a black line to me. It would make sense since new concrete is almost white; as it deteriorates it darkens and white will get better contrast.
RJDG14 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 17:19I know that most of the Reichsautobahn in their later years of use (I believe the 1950s onwards) were retrofitted with white dashed lane markings in both the BRD and DDR (West and East), but most of the Nazi-era photos of them show them with what could be a solid black lane marking. Did they originally have a black marking or no markings, with the black section in the middle simply being a seam between two concrete panels? This is what I mean:
In that and other photos, it's always looked like a black line to me. It would make sense since new concrete is almost white; as it deteriorates it darkens and white will get better contrast.
I remember concrete sections of motorways here where the lines painted in white could be not clear when it rained.
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