Johnstone Bridge A74 - was there a pre-war dual carriageway?

[wallmeerkat]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

It was only in the past few years that the B7078 south of Lesmahagow was singled, with the southbound carriageway turned into a cycle lane. The road was in dire need of resurfacing, and I can't imagine there would have been any practical justification for keeping it as D2. I did enjoy a drive up it maybe 10-12 years ago as an alternative to the M74, and I think I was the only vehicle on the whole road the entire way there!

Yes it was very quiet like a time warp, or how I imagine East German autobahns might have looked, agree it was unneccessary to keep a road of this nature when the M74 was running alongside it.

South of Lesmahagow I see GSV up to 2011 was a very faded D2 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6192116 ... ?entry=ttu 2021 is S2 plus an S2 cycle lane.

[RJDG14]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

It was only in the past few years that the B7078 south of Lesmahagow was singled, with the southbound carriageway turned into a cycle lane. The road was in dire need of resurfacing, and I can't imagine there would have been any practical justification for keeping it as D2. I did enjoy a drive up it maybe 10-12 years ago as an alternative to the M74, and I think I was the only vehicle on the whole road the entire way there!

Yes it was very quiet like a time warp, or how I imagine East German autobahns might have looked, agree it was unneccessary to keep a road of this nature when the M74 was running alongside it.

South of Lesmahagow I see GSV up to 2011 was a very faded D2 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6192116 ... ?entry=ttu 2021 is S2 plus an S2 cycle lane.

I think that some of the worse maintained autobahns in 1980s East Germany might be quite an accurate description of how it looked. I filmed this video of it in 2014:



You can see just what an awful state parts of it were in - it must have been one of Britain's worst quality stretches of D2, having clearly had no maintenance since about 1986.

Did this section feel a noticeably poor standard compared with the rest of the road when in use as the A74 in the early 1980s? I think most other sections contained a hard strip and crash barriers, both of which had been retrofitted during roughly the late 1970s, but I don't think this bit ever did. All of the A74 that features in that 1985 video looks a higher standard than what I think this bit ever was.

[wrinkly]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

Working from south to north, and excluding sections widened to form the motorway, or singled because they were directly affected by the motorway construction:

Sections bypassed after 1991 were all singled within a few months. This includes all sections south of J13.

J13-12, bypassed towards the end of 1991, remained dual into the 2000s.

J12-11, which gives access to a service area and connects the halves of a split junction, remains dual.

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Through Lesmahagow remains dual.

J10-9 was singled at the time of being bypassed.

Did this section feel a noticeably poor standard compared with the rest of the road when in use as the A74 in the early 1980s?

Yes, to a member of this site, and maybe to lorry drivers. Not sure if the average car driver would have noticed.

[RJDG14]

If that video was a good example of a typical journey, I can’t see why the southern half of the A74 was upgraded so soon after being dualled.

I answered essentially the same point not too long ago upthread. It was a 1987 Conservative party general election pledge, not that it did them much good, as they went from 21 seats in Scotland in 1983 to 10 in 1987.

The A74(M) being D3M really just makes the original Hamilton length look appalling. Having a D2M sandwiched between what is now a D4M and a D3M is a joke of situation. Quite why improving that was never considered at the time is a mystery.

There would have been a time when the original length of the M74 would have been the best piece of road between Glasgow and Carlisle, but it remains the same standard over 50 years later and is now the worst part of the route.

The A74(M) number for some of the route is also a bit strange, especially since this is in Scotland where "M74" would usually be used as the term for a motorway replacement of an A road with the same number. The road abruptly changes its number from being M74 to A74(M) at Abington, which is also quite a random place. Most of the A74(M) signs, I believe, are patched and read M6 underneath.

[Ruperts Trooper]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

Working from south to north, and excluding sections widened to form the motorway, or singled because they were directly affected by the motorway construction:

Sections bypassed after 1991 were all singled within a few months. This includes all sections south of J13.

J13-12, bypassed towards the end of 1991, remained dual into the 2000s.

J12-11, which gives access to a service area and connects the halves of a split junction, remains dual.

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Through Lesmahagow remains dual.

J10-9 was singled at the time of being bypassed.

Between Jcts 12 & 13, a short stretch of the old dual carriageway has been left at Red Moss Inn (now closed) to form a very large layby - we use it sometimes as an overnight stop with the caravan on our way to the Highlands - the rest of the northbound carriageway has been converted to a cycleway.

[RJDG14]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

Working from south to north, and excluding sections widened to form the motorway, or singled because they were directly affected by the motorway construction:

Sections bypassed after 1991 were all singled within a few months. This includes all sections south of J13.

J13-12, bypassed towards the end of 1991, remained dual into the 2000s.

J12-11, which gives access to a service area and connects the halves of a split junction, remains dual.

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Through Lesmahagow remains dual.

J10-9 was singled at the time of being bypassed.

Most maps from the 1990s show J12-13 as dual despite it having being bypassed and now singled. The only two sections of original D2 that still remain, following the downgrade of the stretch south of Lesmahagow a few years ago, would be at Lesmahagow and again from J11-12.

Are there any pictures or publically accessible aerial images of the stretch from J12-13 as a dual carriageway? It had definitely been downgraded when this article was written in about 2002 (I think):

https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/b7076-and-b7078

[RJDG14]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

Working from south to north, and excluding sections widened to form the motorway, or singled because they were directly affected by the motorway construction:

Sections bypassed after 1991 were all singled within a few months. This includes all sections south of J13.

J13-12, bypassed towards the end of 1991, remained dual into the 2000s.

J12-11, which gives access to a service area and connects the halves of a split junction, remains dual.

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Through Lesmahagow remains dual.

J10-9 was singled at the time of being bypassed.

Between Jcts 12 & 13, a short stretch of the old dual carriageway has been left at Red Moss Inn (now closed) to form a very large layby - we use it sometimes as an overnight stop with the caravan on our way to the Highlands - the rest of the northbound carriageway has been converted to a cycleway.

Does the layby have exactly the same width and alignment of the old northbound carriageway or not? It does definitely feel as though that is the case:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5244238 ... ?entry=ttu

The triangular "do not overtake" arrow signs on the B7076/B7078 are a little weird because there is a regular dashed line on virtually all of their length, and there are also few blind spots. Are these signs enforceable given that they are not circular?

[Ruperts Trooper]

Working from south to north, and excluding sections widened to form the motorway, or singled because they were directly affected by the motorway construction:

Sections bypassed after 1991 were all singled within a few months. This includes all sections south of J13.

J13-12, bypassed towards the end of 1991, remained dual into the 2000s.

J12-11, which gives access to a service area and connects the halves of a split junction, remains dual.

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Through Lesmahagow remains dual.

J10-9 was singled at the time of being bypassed.

Between Jcts 12 & 13, a short stretch of the old dual carriageway has been left at Red Moss Inn (now closed) to form a very large layby - we use it sometimes as an overnight stop with the caravan on our way to the Highlands - the rest of the northbound carriageway has been converted to a cycleway.

Does the layby have exactly the same width and alignment of the old northbound carriageway or not? It does definitely feel as though that is the case:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5244238 ... ?entry=ttu

I can testify that it hasn't been resurfaced for many decades so I presume it's the original dualling.

[RJDG14]

Between Jcts 12 & 13, a short stretch of the old dual carriageway has been left at Red Moss Inn (now closed) to form a very large layby - we use it sometimes as an overnight stop with the caravan on our way to the Highlands - the rest of the northbound carriageway has been converted to a cycleway.

Does the layby have exactly the same width and alignment of the old northbound carriageway or not? It does definitely feel as though that is the case:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5244238 ... ?entry=ttu

I can testify that it hasn't been resurfaced for many decades so I presume it's the original dualling.

The Scottish Roads Archive Twitter account has some quite good photos of parts of the former A74. Most of it was definitely a higher standard than the bit south of Lesmahagow:

https://twitter.com/search?q=a74%20(fro ... yped_query

Among these are some photos of the road at Johnstonebridge prior to the motorway upgrade.

[Bryn666]

The A74(M) number for some of the route is also a bit strange, especially since this is in Scotland where "M74" would usually be used as the term for a motorway replacement of an A road with the same number. The road abruptly changes its number from being M74 to A74(M) at Abington, which is also quite a random place. Most of the A74(M) signs, I believe, are patched and read M6 underneath.

We have covered this one at great length - the M74 ended at Abington because it was an almost entirely offline replacement for the A74 from the M73 south to Draffan and barring the short stretch from here to Lesmahagow which was directly online, never affected the A74 at all. South of Abington the vast majority is online upgrade with the B7076 being a new build alongside, although there are some notable sections which are offline and these are where the abandoned dual carriageway elements make their appearance for us to enjoy.

The changeover point is where the M6 DBFO begins, and the patched signs showing M6 all start here. Quite a few patches on the B7076 have fallen off and say M6 now, whilst several more south of Johnstonebridge all still say "(A74)" relating to when the Johnstonebridge-Paddy's Rickle gap existed, including the A74 sign coming out of Annandale Water services.

One major reason I am interested in roads is my late grandfather, a truck driver, was overhead discussing the motorway upgrade at Gretna with my truck driving uncles. He died in May 1992 when I was 4.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Does the layby have exactly the same width and alignment of the old northbound carriageway or not? It does definitely feel as though that is the case:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5244238 ... ?entry=ttu

I can testify that it hasn't been resurfaced for many decades so I presume it's the original dualling.

The Scottish Roads Archive Twitter account has some quite good photos of parts of the former A74. Most of it was definitely a higher standard than the bit south of Lesmahagow:

https://twitter.com/search?q=a74%20(fro ... yped_query

Among these are some photos of the road at Johnstonebridge prior to the motorway upgrade.

The stretch of the A74 near Lesmahagow was definitely the worst part of the road between the M6 and M73.

[Berk]

I thought there only 7 miles of new build B7076?? The vast majority of it belonged to the A74, whichever carriageway was more suitable.

[wrinkly]

I thought there only 7 miles of new build B7076?? The vast majority of it belonged to the A74, whichever carriageway was more suitable.

Yes, has somebody suggested otherwise?

[Berk]

I thought there only 7 miles of new build B7076?? The vast majority of it belonged to the A74, whichever carriageway was more suitable.

Yes, has somebody suggested otherwise?

I think the references to it being new-build are misleading - because the majority of it isn’t. Most LAR’s are built using a recycled carriageway unless it’s impractical.

[orudge]

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Perhaps one for "Botched Roadsigns", this appears to be a new like-for-like sign (still mentioning the A74 as the route to Carlisle) as a replacement for this old sign.

I have vague memories of our occasional holiday trips through the 90s of major roadworks through (in my head) rather mountainous areas. It must have been the A74 upgrade works, which are certainly hilly in places but not necessarily mountainous, but as a child everything seems bigger!

Thanks to the post referencing the Scottish Roads Archive's Twitter photos, I suspect this may have been what I was remembering - specifically the cuttings/massive rock wall bits!

[RJDG14]

From J11 to the south end of Lesmahagow was singled relatively recently and had a thread on here.

Perhaps one for "Botched Roadsigns", this appears to be a new like-for-like sign (still mentioning the A74 as the route to Carlisle) as a replacement for this old sign.

I have vague memories of our occasional holiday trips through the 90s of major roadworks through (in my head) rather mountainous areas. It must have been the A74 upgrade works, which are certainly hilly in places but not necessarily mountainous, but as a child everything seems bigger!

Thanks to the post referencing the Scottish Roads Archive's Twitter photos, I suspect this may have been what I was remembering - specifically the cuttings/massive rock wall bits!

Does that photo show the B7076/B7078 under construction to the right of the old A74, with this section looking to have had an online motorway upgrade?

Some of the traffic in that photo looks to be using what was going to be the motorway hard shoulder.

I'm curious if anyone here knows how many bridges over the road existed on the pre-motorway A74 between Gretna and Blackwood? There were several on the Carlisle to Gretna bit but I think there were fewer further north. I'm not counting bridges where the road went over something. These would be the overbridges that I can name between north of Gretna and Blackwood based on the SABRE Maps information:

Possible one at the junction to the north of Gretna (SABRE Maps shows its newest revision as an unfinished junction with what looks like an overbridge already in place)
Two immediately north of Gretna
One at the central Kirkpatrick Fleming junction and one at the northern junction
One at the Eaglesfield junction (this survives to this day)
One at Ecclefechan
Three at Lockerbie; this took the form of one at all 3 grade separated junctions
The bridge under the railway just south of the former split carriageway section
One at Crawford (I think this carried a footpath or farm/maintenance road and is still standing today)
Two at Kirkmuirhill

This equates to, I think, 13 in total, which isn't many for a roughly 65 mile stretch of road.

[wrinkly]

Does that photo show the B7076/B7078 under construction to the right of the old A74, with this section looking to have had an online motorway upgrade?

Yes, that's looking south a few miles north of Beattock. On most of that section the motorway was created by symmetric widening of the A74 with a new B7076 to the west, but here there's the additional factor that an S curve in the previous alignment is being smoothed out.

Some of the traffic in that photo looks to be using what was going to be the motorway hard shoulder.

Yes, there was a good deal of that sort of thing in places.

I'm curious if anyone here knows how many bridges over the road existed on the pre-motorway A74 between Gretna and Blackwood? There were several on the Carlisle to Gretna bit but I think there were fewer further north. I'm not counting bridges where the road went over something. These would be the overbridges that I can name between north of Gretna and Blackwood based on the SABRE Maps information:

Possible one at the junction to the north of Gretna (SABRE Maps shows its newest revision as an unfinished junction with what looks like an overbridge already in place)
Two immediately north of Gretna
One at the central Kirkpatrick Fleming junction and one at the northern junction
One at the Eaglesfield junction (this survives to this day)
One at Ecclefechan
Three at Lockerbie; this took the form of one at all 3 grade separated junctions
The bridge under the railway just south of the former split carriageway section
One at Crawford (I think this carried a footpath or farm/maintenance road and is still standing today)
Two at Kirkmuirhill

This equates to, I think, 13 in total, which isn't many for a roughly 65 mile stretch of road.

I'll check this later.

[RJDG14]

Does that photo show the B7076/B7078 under construction to the right of the old A74, with this section looking to have had an online motorway upgrade?

Yes, that's looking south a few miles north of Beattock. On most of that section the motorway was created by symmetric widening of the A74 with a new B7076 to the west, but here there's the additional factor that an S curve in the previous alignment is being smoothed out.

Some of the traffic in that photo looks to be using what was going to be the motorway hard shoulder.

Yes, there was a good deal of that sort of thing in places.

I'm curious if anyone here knows how many bridges over the road existed on the pre-motorway A74 between Gretna and Blackwood? There were several on the Carlisle to Gretna bit but I think there were fewer further north. I'm not counting bridges where the road went over something. These would be the overbridges that I can name between north of Gretna and Blackwood based on the SABRE Maps information:

Possible one at the junction to the north of Gretna (SABRE Maps shows its newest revision as an unfinished junction with what looks like an overbridge already in place)
Two immediately north of Gretna
One at the central Kirkpatrick Fleming junction and one at the northern junction
One at the Eaglesfield junction (this survives to this day)
One at Ecclefechan
Three at Lockerbie; this took the form of one at all 3 grade separated junctions
The bridge under the railway just south of the former split carriageway section
One at Crawford (I think this carried a footpath or farm/maintenance road and is still standing today)
Two at Kirkmuirhill

This equates to, I think, 13 in total, which isn't many for a roughly 65 mile stretch of road.

I'll check this later.

Nearly all of the overbridges look to have been on stretches that received offline upgrades rather than those which received online dualling.

In terms of grade separated junctions in order from Gretna to the original end of the M74, these were the ones that I believe it had (based on old maps):

Gretna (A75) (limited access)
Gretna north (limited access)
Kirkpatrick Fleming south (limited access)
Kirkpatrick Fleming central (limited access)
Kirkpatrick Fleming north (limited access)
Eaglesfield
Ecclefechan south (limited access)
Ecclefechan north (limited access)
Lockerbie south (limited access)
Lockerbie central (limited access)
Lockerbie north (limited access)
Beattock south (limited access, unless you count an access road for northbound traffic just south of it)
Beattock north
Abington (limited access)
Lesmahagow
Kirkmuirhill central (limited access)
Kirkmuirhill north (limited access)

Only three of the junctions, Beattock north, Eaglesfield and Lesmahagow, looked to be full access GSJs. Nearly all of the GSJs were on bypass sections as opposed to the online parts which generally had at-grade junctions.

[roadtester]

The Scottish Roads Archive Twitter account has some quite good photos of parts of the former A74. Most of it was definitely a higher standard than the bit south of Lesmahagow:

https://twitter.com/search?q=a74%20(fro ... yped_query

Thanks. Some real gems there.

[MotorwayGuy]

This section of the B7078 was still a dual-carriageway which I'm presuming was the original A74 before the M74 was built. It looks like it was basically abandoned since being bypassed despite being open to traffic, still having remnants of dashed edge markings. Unfortunately it was singled at some point after 2013 removing any indication of its former importance.