Johnstone Bridge A74 - was there a pre-war dual carriageway?

[wrinkly]

Im quite bemused by this topic, as the A74 from it's earlier days ( circa 1968 through to 1978?) was an old friend of mine. I do remember some form of metal bridge over a river near the border,( where the Motorway stopped just before the A74 started) and an old-fashioned truck stop on the Scottish side way back in circa 1971 times.( The truck stop remains in memory, as Swmbo, a dockers daughter, loved the place). Its in times of today that I wish I'd taken photos. But when its a two driver dash from London to north of Glasgow, and spelling it between two drivers, or dashing to & from Middlesbrough , photos are not really a priority.

I used the old A74 regularly in '71-72, I certainly recall signs for "Metal Bridge" - there's a hamlet of that name where the A74 crossed the River Esk, just south of the Mossband Viaduct.

Named after Telford's original early 19th century metal bridge, which was replaced in 1916. The replacement lasted until the dualling in 1970.

The old-fashioned truck stop may have been Coatsgate, north of Beattock, which survived until the coming of the motorway.

[RJDG14]

Found on Geograph, this picture of the A74 at Low Harker, 1km north of M6 J44, taken in January 2007 by Alexander P Knapp:

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/319545

The works to upgrade the Cumberland Gap to M6 started mid-2006 but had clearly had little visible effect on this stretch by the date of the photo. The fence on the far side of the road is probably new, put up as part of the contract.

In January the sun does not stray far from due south, so the leftward shadows show that we're looking from the west side with the northbound carriageway nearest us. The first overbridge north from the M6 is probably not far out of shot to our left. (Edit: the details on Geograph confirm this.)

Strictly speaking the picture does not prove that the hard shoulder extended all the way to Todhills - further evidence would be required for that. When the Cumberland Gap was first dualled in 1970, there was a LILO GSJ at the first overbridge. This junction was closed in the 1990s (with the overbridge remaining open, as it is to this day). That junction would have been a possible place for the hard shoulder to end.

There's also a picture of the south end of the A74(M) at Guards Mill at the same date:

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/319562

The hard shoulder definitely got up towards Todhills - confirmed by looking at historic Google Earth imagery, it stopped at the Todhills LILO. I remember having breakfast at Todhills LC in October 2003 on my first trip to Scotland, and the hard shoulders stood out then as I remarked the A74 and M50 were basically one and the same there.

The A74 appeared to be D2M standard up to about Todhills based on old aerial images (I just about remember being driven down it before the M6 was extended to Gretna but wouldn't have been paying attention to these things as I was too young). The 2003 imagery on Google Earth shows the hard shoulders stopping at the LILO junction bridge just north of Todhills services. Most of the remainder from Todhills to Gretna, spare the two large bridges that carried the road, had hard strips but not hard shoulders. I'm unsure if they were there when the section was built in the early 1970s since I know some stretches of pre-motorway A74 further north had hard strips added during the late 1970s and 1980s, although the hard shoulders from Carlisle to Todhills almost certainly would have been original.

How did the standard of the pre-motorway A74 in Scotland compare to the Todhills to Gretna stretch that existed until the late 2000s? My understanding is that it got progressively worse as you went further north (before becoming motorway again just north of Kirkmuirhill). I'm under the impression that the Gretna to Lockerbie stretch was a similar standard to the stretch between Todhills and Gretna, while I think its standard dipped from Johnstonebridge onwards, although it still featured a moderately impressive split section just past where it crossed under the railway line, and a couple of semi impressive grade separated junctions at Beattock and Abington.

These are all of the sections south of Uddington where the old carriageway(s) remains visible:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0230957 ... ?entry=ttu (abandoned bridge over railway)
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0539144 ... ?entry=ttu (several abandoned sliproads)
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0953791 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.3967971 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.4128788 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.4267212 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.5246796 ... ?entry=ttu

I've not included bridges where one former carriageway has been grassed over.

[RJDG14]

May I join in the thanks to Ross Spur for the work on the A74 dualling timeline. I had no real idea at all when the work took place but often wondered about it.

As others have said, it’s so frustrating that there is so little photographic documentation of the post-dualling but pre-motorway A74. I did travel the route a number of times but annoyingly not much has stuck.

I still wonder why the route got an (almost) full motorway upgrade not so long after the dualling was completed in the early seventies - I suppose the symbolism of having a full motorway link to Scotland (ignoring the small matter of the Cumberland Gap) was important.

I've been wanting to see old photos of the pre-motorway A74 for the past 10 years or so. Some have emerged on the internet in recent years including a handful taken at Johnstonebridge and a couple at Beattock, but there are many sections that there is still no online photos of.

There was one user here who uploaded some old footage of the A74 taken on a camcorder from the passenger seat in the mid 1980s to YouTube about 9-10 years ago, but it was subsequently taken down for containing copyright infringing music. If this user still has the footage, would it be possible for them to reupload it without the music? I recall seeing that and it's probably the best documented material I've seen showing what the former road was like.

Update: The footage is back online after nearly 10 years (without the music):



Can anyone here give locations to certain timestamps? I recognise the northbound sliproad for the A75 at about 3:10 and think most of the first half of the video documents the section between Carlisle and Gretna, though I'm less sure about where the footage in the second half was taken. It definitely looks like it was taken heading northbound.

I'm pretty certain that the video at about 5:10 was taken roughly here based on the geography:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.3599494 ... ?entry=ttu

[wrinkly]

Most of the remainder from Todhills to Gretna, spare the two large bridges that carried the road, had hard strips but not hard shoulders. I'm unsure if they were there when the section was built in the early 1970s since I know some stretches of pre-motorway A74 further north had hard strips added during the late 1970s and 1980s, although the hard shoulders from Carlisle to Todhills almost certainly would have been original.

Any hard shoulders and marginal strips between Carlisle and the border dated from the original dualling.

How did the standard of the pre-motorway A74 in Scotland compare to the Todhills to Gretna stretch that existed until the late 2000s? My understanding is that it got progressively worse as you went further north (before becoming motorway again just north of Kirkmuirhill). I'm under the impression that the Gretna to Lockerbie stretch was a similar standard to the stretch between Todhills and Gretna, while I think its standard dipped from Johnstonebridge onwards, although it still featured a moderately impressive split section just past where it crossed under the railway line, and a couple of semi impressive grade separated junctions at Beattock and Abington.

You've largely answered your own question. Like the A1 as originally dualled, the standard varied, with later sections being better in several ways, more grade separated, more avoiding of existing frontage buildings, more motorway-like. Broadly speaking the dualling proceeded north to south, and bypasses preceded between-towns sections, but thanks to Ross Spur's work you can now see exactly when each section was built. You can also follow them on 1" maps on SABRE Maps.

Some differences from the A1: there were no roundabouts on the A74 mainline; there were no hard shoulders in Scotland.

Another point that may not have been mentioned previously: at Lesmahagow a GSJ appears to have been created in the 1960s by putting this road under the existing river bridge:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.64446 ... ?entry=ttu

[RJDG14]

Most of the remainder from Todhills to Gretna, spare the two large bridges that carried the road, had hard strips but not hard shoulders. I'm unsure if they were there when the section was built in the early 1970s since I know some stretches of pre-motorway A74 further north had hard strips added during the late 1970s and 1980s, although the hard shoulders from Carlisle to Todhills almost certainly would have been original.

Any hard shoulders and marginal strips between Carlisle and the border dated from the original dualling.

How did the standard of the pre-motorway A74 in Scotland compare to the Todhills to Gretna stretch that existed until the late 2000s? My understanding is that it got progressively worse as you went further north (before becoming motorway again just north of Kirkmuirhill). I'm under the impression that the Gretna to Lockerbie stretch was a similar standard to the stretch between Todhills and Gretna, while I think its standard dipped from Johnstonebridge onwards, although it still featured a moderately impressive split section just past where it crossed under the railway line, and a couple of semi impressive grade separated junctions at Beattock and Abington.

You've largely answered your own question. Like the A1 as originally dualled, the standard varied, with later sections being better in several ways, more grade separated, more avoiding of existing frontage buildings, more motorway-like. Broadly speaking the dualling proceeded north to south, but thanks to Ross Spur's work you can now see exactly when each section was built. You can also follow them on 1" maps on SABRE Maps.

Some differences from the A1: there were no roundabouts on the A74 mainline; there were no hard shoulders in Scotland.

I'm not aware of any of the Scottish A1 having hard shoulders either.

The worst stretch of the former A74 was probably the bit from Lesmahagow to Uddington. Some of it has been downgraded to S2 in recent years but prior to this it was probably one of Britain's worst dual carriageways in terms of condition (I managed to convince my dad to take me on it on the way back from a trip to Scotland in 2014). While it would have definitely had a much better surface when in use as the A74, I was surprised to see it lacking a central crash barrier in a couple of short video clips from a mid 1980s film about construction of the motorway replacement. I had previously assumed that it previously had a crash barrier during the early 1980s (like most other sections of the road did at this point) and that they had been removed following construction of the M74. My understanding is that this stretch was dualled between the 1930s and 1950s, hence the lower standard compared with the sections dualled during the 1960s.

I believe there were some stretches of D2 A74 that were later given a 60mph speed limit due to safety concerns but don't know where they were.

[wrinkly]

I'm not aware of any of the Scottish A1 having hard shoulders either.

I wasn't attempting to suggest they did. I wasn't thinking of the A1 in Scotland, because I was discussing roads dualled in the 1960s. But some old dualled sections of A1 in England, e.g. in Yorkshire, had hard shoulders of a sort, often vaguely defined at the back edge, back in the 1960s. I wanted to say there was nothing like that on the A74, and added the qualification "in Scotland" because there were hard shoulders on part of the Cumberland Gap.

I believe there were some stretches of D2 A74 that were later given a 60mph speed limit due to safety concerns but don't know where they were.

I don't remember that. I suppose it could have been at Lesmahagow, or perhaps it was temporary pending resurfacing or something.

[Berk]

If that video was a good example of a typical journey, I can’t see why the southern half of the A74 was upgraded so soon after being dualled.

Making it D3 would’ve probably been enough. Not disputing that some reserve gals still existed, as well as sub-standard junctions. But it does strongly resemble the A1 and dualled parts of the A5.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Im quite bemused by this topic, as the A74 from it's earlier days ( circa 1968 through to 1978?) was an old friend of mine. I do remember some form of metal bridge over a river near the border,( where the Motorway stopped just before the A74 started) and an old-fashioned truck stop on the Scottish side way back in circa 1971 times.( The truck stop remains in memory, as Swmbo, a dockers daughter, loved the place). Its in times of today that I wish I'd taken photos. But when its a two driver dash from London to north of Glasgow, and spelling it between two drivers, or dashing to & from Middlesbrough , photos are not really a priority.

I used the old A74 regularly in '71-72, I certainly recall signs for "Metal Bridge" - there's a hamlet of that name where the A74 crossed the River Esk, just south of the Mossband Viaduct.

Named after Telford's original early 19th century metal bridge, which was replaced in 1916. The replacement lasted until the dualling in 1970.

The old-fashioned truck stop may have been Coatsgate, north of Beattock, which survived until the coming of the motorway.

As I recall, that dualling was still under construction in late '71 - my first trip up the A74 was in early August '71 and then regularly from early September '71 - there were always much construction around Metal Bridge at that time.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Most of the remainder from Todhills to Gretna, spare the two large bridges that carried the road, had hard strips but not hard shoulders. I'm unsure if they were there when the section was built in the early 1970s since I know some stretches of pre-motorway A74 further north had hard strips added during the late 1970s and 1980s, although the hard shoulders from Carlisle to Todhills almost certainly would have been original.

Any hard shoulders and marginal strips between Carlisle and the border dated from the original dualling.

How did the standard of the pre-motorway A74 in Scotland compare to the Todhills to Gretna stretch that existed until the late 2000s? My understanding is that it got progressively worse as you went further north (before becoming motorway again just north of Kirkmuirhill). I'm under the impression that the Gretna to Lockerbie stretch was a similar standard to the stretch between Todhills and Gretna, while I think its standard dipped from Johnstonebridge onwards, although it still featured a moderately impressive split section just past where it crossed under the railway line, and a couple of semi impressive grade separated junctions at Beattock and Abington.

You've largely answered your own question. Like the A1 as originally dualled, the standard varied, with later sections being better in several ways, more grade separated, more avoiding of existing frontage buildings, more motorway-like. Broadly speaking the dualling proceeded north to south, but thanks to Ross Spur's work you can now see exactly when each section was built. You can also follow them on 1" maps on SABRE Maps.

Some differences from the A1: there were no roundabouts on the A74 mainline; there were no hard shoulders in Scotland.

I'm not aware of any of the Scottish A1 having hard shoulders either.

The worst stretch of the former A74 was probably the bit from Lesmahagow to Uddington. Some of it has been downgraded to S2 in recent years but prior to this it was probably one of Britain's worst dual carriageways in terms of condition (I managed to convince my dad to take me on it on the way back from a trip to Scotland in 2014). While it would have definitely had a much better surface when in use as the A74, I was surprised to see it lacking a central crash barrier in a couple of short video clips from a mid 1980s film about construction of the motorway replacement. I had previously assumed that it previously had a crash barrier during the early 1980s (like most other sections of the road did at this point) and that they had been removed following construction of the M74. My understanding is that this stretch was dualled between the 1930s and 1950s, hence the lower standard compared with the sections dualled during the 1960s.

I believe there were some stretches of D2 A74 that were later given a 60mph speed limit due to safety concerns but don't know where they were.

The A74 around Lesmahagow had narrow lanes, when overtaking HGVs the gaps were very narrow even with the relatively narrow cars of the day, mk1 Ford Escort in my case - further south there was a double curve which could be troublesome taken at "full" speed - in winter, some stretches defrosted much slower than others which could catch unwary drivers out.

[roadtester]

Update: The footage is back online after nearly 10 years (without the music):

Thanks - great find!

[wrinkly]

As I recall, that dualling was still under construction in late '71 - my first trip up the A74 was in early August '71 and then regularly from early September '71 - there were always much construction around Metal Bridge at that time.

Sure you aren't thinking of the Gretna bypass? That (extending as far south as just north of Mossband viaduct) was completed in May 1973 and I have always believed it to be the only section not completed by the end of 1970. (M6 J41-42 was another if you're including that far south.)

[Ruperts Trooper]

As I recall, that dualling was still under construction in late '71 - my first trip up the A74 was in early August '71 and then regularly from early September '71 - there were always much construction around Metal Bridge at that time.

Sure you aren't thinking of the Gretna bypass? That (extending as far south as just north of Mossband viaduct) was completed in May 1973 and I have always believed it to be the only section not completed by the end of 1970. (M6 J41-42 was another if you're including that far south.)

My memory isn't that accurate - I do know there were direction signs for "Metal Bridge" within the roadworks section - memory is strange, some things in absolute detail and others are just a blank - not many MSAs open in '71-72 and I can remember exactly where we stopped for a break in Perth but no idea where we stopped in Penrith or where we refuelled.

[Bryn666]

I believe there were some stretches of D2 A74 that were later given a 60mph speed limit due to safety concerns but don't know where they were.

You're getting muddled here - the 60 limit south of the Lesmahagow section came after the M74 was built. The original dual carriageway was NSL all the way. There were some advisory speed limit signs for HGVs in places much like on the A90.

[wrinkly]

As I recall, that dualling was still under construction in late '71 - my first trip up the A74 was in early August '71 and then regularly from early September '71 - there were always much construction around Metal Bridge at that time.

Sure you aren't thinking of the Gretna bypass? That (extending as far south as just north of Mossband viaduct) was completed in May 1973 and I have always believed it to be the only section not completed by the end of 1970. (M6 J41-42 was another if you're including that far south.)

My memory isn't that accurate - I do know there were direction signs for "Metal Bridge" within the roadworks section - memory is strange, some things in absolute detail and others are just a blank - not many MSAs open in '71-72 and I can remember exactly where we stopped for a break in Perth but no idea where we stopped in Penrith or where we refuelled.

Signs for Metal Bridge suggests you were very close to the Esk bridge, which I thought was completed in 1970, and Ross Spur's data agrees. My parents and I went on holiday to Troon in summer 1971. I thought it was finished by then. I also made two journeys to Edinburgh and one back in 1972.

It must remain a minor mystery.

[RJDG14]

If I were to take a trip back in time to the 1980s and were allowed to do just 10 things, travelling along the old A74 and getting lots of photos for future reference from bridges (the few that there were) and laybys would be one of them.

If we're to compare the former A74 to the non-motorway D2 stretches of A1, I know that many of the remaining ones are a bit hairy to drive. The Wentbridge Viaduct has this weird caving in sensation, for example.

[owen b]

If that video was a good example of a typical journey, I can’t see why the southern half of the A74 was upgraded so soon after being dualled.

I answered essentially the same point not too long ago upthread. It was a 1987 Conservative party general election pledge, not that it did them much good, as they went from 21 seats in Scotland in 1983 to 10 in 1987.

[Bryn666]

If that video was a good example of a typical journey, I can’t see why the southern half of the A74 was upgraded so soon after being dualled.

I answered essentially the same point not too long ago upthread. It was a 1987 Conservative party general election pledge, not that it did them much good, as they went from 21 seats in Scotland in 1983 to 10 in 1987.

The A74(M) being D3M really just makes the original Hamilton length look appalling. Having a D2M sandwiched between what is now a D4M and a D3M is a joke of situation. Quite why improving that was never considered at the time is a mystery.

[owen b]

If that video was a good example of a typical journey, I can’t see why the southern half of the A74 was upgraded so soon after being dualled.

I answered essentially the same point not too long ago upthread. It was a 1987 Conservative party general election pledge, not that it did them much good, as they went from 21 seats in Scotland in 1983 to 10 in 1987.

The A74(M) being D3M really just makes the original Hamilton length look appalling. Having a D2M sandwiched between what is now a D4M and a D3M is a joke of situation. Quite why improving that was never considered at the time is a mystery.

The odd thing was that when the pledge was made in 1987 which ultimately resulted in lots of new D3M, the extension south to J11 had recently been opened as D2M which very quickly looked like a weak link.

My experience is that south of J6 the traffic thins out rapidly, the trouble being the terrain, which is undulating and southbound mostly uphill. In particular there's a significant altitude increase from J7 to J8 and again after J10 and there is often elephant racing and queues in lane two to get past slower traffic. It's nothing compared to say the A1 south of the M62 of course.

[wallmeerkat]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

[orudge]

I seem to recall doing a bit of a tour of the old B7076/B7078 in the early 2000s and there still being considerable stretches of dual carraigeway, but looking on GSV/Google maps these days it's mostly single carraigeway.

It was only in the past few years that the B7078 south of Lesmahagow was singled, with the southbound carriageway turned into a cycle lane. The road was in dire need of resurfacing, and I can't imagine there would have been any practical justification for keeping it as D2. I did enjoy a drive up it maybe 10-12 years ago as an alternative to the M74, and I think I was the only vehicle on the whole road the entire way there!