Johnstone Bridge A74 - was there a pre-war dual carriageway?

[RJDG14]

This section of the B7078 was still a dual-carriageway which I'm presuming was the original A74 before the M74 was built. It looks like it was basically abandoned since being bypassed despite being open to traffic, still having remnants of dashed edge markings. Unfortunately it was singled at some point after 2013 removing any indication of its former importance.

How common were these dashed edge markings in the UK prior to the early 1990s (when I think the legislation was changed)? I've seen a weird mixture of dashed and solid edge markings on 1970s and 1980s road photos.

[wrinkly]

Nearly all of the overbridges look to have been on stretches that received offline upgrades rather than those which received online dualling.
[snip]
Nearly all of the GSJs were on bypass sections as opposed to the online parts which generally had at-grade junctions.

These phenomena are familiar. Much the same happened on many sections of other early dualled roads, notably the A1 in England.

[orudge]

See also the A90 between Dundee and Stonehaven, which only has a handful of GSJs, and excluding the few that were upgraded around Forfar around 15-20 years ago, most of them are on the Brechin and Stonehaven bypasses - the most recent to be constructed.

[wrinkly]

There are two separate phenomena superimposed, concerning many dualled roads:

1) More recent sections are to higher standard than earlier ones

2) Bypasses tend to be fully grade separated and motorway-like, whilst online improved stretches tend to keep flat junctions and in some cases frontage development.

[RJDG14]

There are two separate phenomena superimposed, concerning many dualled roads:

1) More recent sections are to higher standard than earlier ones

2) Bypasses tend to be fully grade separated and motorway-like, whilst online improved stretches tend to keep flat junctions and in some cases frontage development.

By frontage development do you mean things such as homes and bus stops?

The A74 seemed a fairly high standard up to roughly just north of Lockerbie based on the maps and photos I've seen but declined in quality after this. Much of the stretch between Gretna and Lockerbie had been an offline upgrade whereas many of the stretches to the north were online upgrades.

The abandoned A74 bridge at Kirkpatrick Fleming, which still has both carriageways intact and even visible lane markings, is quite interesting in my opinion. Was it needed for access or simply considered less disruptive to rail traffic to leave it than remove it?

Some of 3 of the 4 Eaglesfield junction sliproads are also still there. It's probably the most intact of the former GSJs on the A74, largely because it received an offline motorway upgrade when most of the other GSJs were on stretches that received online upgrades:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0535738 ... ?entry=ttu

[nowster]

The example given shows one of my current bugbears: the lack of foliage control in recent years.

https://goo.gl/maps/mSVjBeQjKLXqwPsQA

[Chris5156]

By frontage development do you mean things such as homes and bus stops?

Frontage development is any property that fronts onto a road - i.e. which is accessed from that road.

[RJDG14]

By frontage development do you mean things such as homes and bus stops?

Frontage development is any property that fronts onto a road - i.e. which is accessed from that road.

There are some roads such as the A419/A417 that are almost expressway standard between J15 of the M4 at Swindon and the roundabout just south of Birdlip, but it is not currently eligible due to the fact that there are still some frontage developments and at-grade junctions between Blunsdon and Cricklade, which is now the lowest standard portion of this stretch following completion of the Blunsdon bypass about 15 years ago. It was an online upgrade and features a fairly wide central reservation for much of its length.

[c2R]

How common were these dashed edge markings in the UK prior to the early 1990s (when I think the legislation was changed)? I've seen a weird mixture of dashed and solid edge markings on 1970s and 1980s road photos.

I remember them being really common....

[roadtester]

By frontage development do you mean things such as homes and bus stops?

Frontage development is any property that fronts onto a road - i.e. which is accessed from that road.

There are some roads such as the A419/A417 that are almost expressway standard between J15 of the M4 at Swindon and the roundabout just south of Birdlip, but it is not currently eligible due to the fact that there are still some frontage developments and at-grade junctions between Blunsdon and Cricklade, which is now the lowest standard portion of this stretch following completion of the Blunsdon bypass about 15 years ago. It was an online upgrade and features a fairly wide central reservation for much of its length.

Every time I go that way it jars with me that they didn’t tidy that bit up when they did the bypass. So annoying!

[RJDG14]

Frontage development is any property that fronts onto a road - i.e. which is accessed from that road.

There are some roads such as the A419/A417 that are almost expressway standard between J15 of the M4 at Swindon and the roundabout just south of Birdlip, but it is not currently eligible due to the fact that there are still some frontage developments and at-grade junctions between Blunsdon and Cricklade, which is now the lowest standard portion of this stretch following completion of the Blunsdon bypass about 15 years ago. It was an online upgrade and features a fairly wide central reservation for much of its length.

Every time I go that way it jars with me that they didn’t tidy that bit up when they did the bypass. So annoying!

The Blunsdon to Cricklade section isn't that bad. Due to the placement of the properties and access roads, they would either have to knock numerous properties down or build an entirely new road to grade separate this short stretch. This section of the A419 along with the 1970s Cricklade bypass immediately to the north (which features two original grade separated junctions, though only one is full access) feel fairly like how I imagine the A74 felt.

The A419 used to have an at-grade junction on a short stretch of D2 just north of Latton (where the Spine Road junction is) but this section was realigned during the 1990s improvement works and the original dual carriageway here has been completely lost due to extensive relandscaping. The original Cirencester bypass is still D2 and features two (original) roundabouts on the Swindon to Gloucester route as well as some at grade junctions. The original stretch of D2 at Blunsdon was definitely the worst stetch from about 1998-2008 but was downgraded to S2 after it was bypassed. I particularly disliked the old Blunsdon hill, which was very narrow for a dual carriageway and felt about as steep to me as the hill on the S2 Missing Link section. The new Blunsdon hill section is a lot nicer and gently works its way around the edge of it rather than cutting directly up it.

I don't have much memory of this, but was the old section of the A419 at Blunsdon (pre-bypass) a bottleneck once the rest of the road had been improved?

The A55 is also grade separated most of the way but has a short stretch of a lower standard with at grade junctions (mostly with farm roads) and properties a few miles east of Bangor. I think it was an online upgrade while most of it was upgraded offline. I think there are also a couple of former dual stretches that featured at-grade junctions but which have since been bypassed/realigned.

[wrinkly]

The A55 is also grade separated most of the way but has a short stretch of a lower standard with at grade junctions (mostly with farm roads) and properties a few miles east of Bangor. I think it was an online upgrade while most of it was upgraded offline.

Abergwyngregyn to Tai'r Meibion. Currently being sorted out (may be approaching completion by now).

viewtopic.php?t=25205&hilit=abergwyngregyn&start=120

[RJDG14]

The A55 is also grade separated most of the way but has a short stretch of a lower standard with at grade junctions (mostly with farm roads) and properties a few miles east of Bangor. I think it was an online upgrade while most of it was upgraded offline.

Abergwyngregyn to Tai'r Meibion. Currently being sorted out (may be approaching completion by now).

viewtopic.php?t=25205&hilit=abergwyngregyn&start=120

The latest satellite imagery on Google Earth (from 2023) shows that they have grade separated this section now. Was there any reason why they hadn't done previously? Was it older than much of the road?

[wrinkly]

The latest satellite imagery on Google Earth (from 2023) shows that they have grade separated this section now. Was there any reason why they hadn't done previously? Was it older than much of the road?

It was one of the earlier sections to be dualled, with work starting in 1967, and was done by building a second carriageway alongside the original one.

Since the completion of dualling of the entire route they have gone back and brought the earlier, online-daulled sections up to modern standards. This was probably the last section of that programme. Other sections revamped in this way were further east where the traffic is heavier.

[RJDG14]

The latest satellite imagery on Google Earth (from 2023) shows that they have grade separated this section now. Was there any reason why they hadn't done previously? Was it older than much of the road?

It was one of the earlier sections to be dualled, with work starting in 1967, and was done by building a second carriageway alongside the original one.

Since the completion of dualling of the entire route they have gone back and brought the earlier, online-daulled sections up to modern standards. This was probably the last section of that programme.

Can you name where the other similar stretches were? I can think of 2 others, one to the west of Llanddulas and I think another at Bodelwyddan. Both of these received partially offline dual upgrades whereas the improvements on the stretch to the east of Bangor appear to have retained the original alignment. The Bangor bypass opened in the 1980s and I think has always been its modern standard.

I downloaded an old high resolution satellite image from the USGS EarthExplorer tool from 1973 a few weeks back that shows most of the A55 route as it was then, and am analysing it to see where the earlier dualled sections were. The section immediately to the east of the St Asaph bypass along with parts at Bodelwyddan look a tiny bit like S4 in this imagery although the resolution is a little too low to know for sure. The St Asaph bypass, a short stretch west of Bodelwyddan and the Llanddulas hill/bypass were definitely D2 in 1973.

[wrinkly]

The old dualled section at Bodelwyddan was first extended westwards, curving offline, then the original part was bypassed and singled, and the steel footbridge was removed. It is now an unclassified single carriageway.

The old dualled section at Llanddulas/Old Colwyn was first extended eastwards, curving offline, then the original part was bypassed and partly singled. Most of the dual carriageway remains and is now A547.

A section of A5 in the middle of Anglesey was dualled, then bypassed by the A55, then singled.

When I referred to sections revamped after first dualling, I was mainly thinking of the section immediately east of the St Asaph bypass. This section was first dualled to a very low standard, I think before WWII, with narrow lanes and a very narrow, paved central reservation with frequent short gaps. It was eventually realigned to the south and vertically downward, leaving a bit of bypassed road for access.

Before this was done, there used to be a house on the left (south) side of the road about here. I think part of their living room was owned by the Welsh Office and leased back to the occupiers! It was demolished as part of the revamp.

The Abergele and St Asaph bypasses were pretty much simultaneous but with quite different detailing, presumably different designers. The St Asaph bypass was built without marginal strips and had them added decades later. This involved alterations to the bridges of the A525 interchange.

A section to the west of St A was dualled by adding a new carriageway with marginal strips but leaving the old carriageway without them for years, but they were eventually added later.

Some flat junctions and central reservation gaps still existed after first dualling but the gaps were closed later.

I seem to remember there's also some interesting and complicated history around Northop but I can't remember any details just now.

[Berk]

There are some roads such as the A419/A417 that are almost expressway standard between J15 of the M4 at Swindon and the roundabout just south of Birdlip, but it is not currently eligible due to the fact that there are still some frontage developments and at-grade junctions between Blunsdon and Cricklade, which is now the lowest standard portion of this stretch following completion of the Blunsdon bypass about 15 years ago. It was an online upgrade and features a fairly wide central reservation for much of its length.

Every time I go that way it jars with me that they didn’t tidy that bit up when they did the bypass. So annoying!

The Blunsdon to Cricklade section isn't that bad.

I think it’s more to do with the lack of the junction from the A417, and the inexplicable number-swapping with the A419. How can you justify an online number-change??

[RJDG14]

The old dualled section at Bodelwyddan was first extended westwards, curving offline, then the original part was bypassed and singled, and the steel footbridge was removed. It is now an unclassified single carriageway.

The old dualled section at Llanddulas/Old Colwyn was first extended eastwards, curving offline, then the original part was bypassed and partly singled. Most of the dual carriageway remains and is now A547.

A section of A5 in the middle of Anglesey was dualled, then bypassed by the A55, then singled.

When I referred to sections revamped after first dualling, I was mainly thinking of the section immediately east of the St Asaph bypass. This section was first dualled to a very low standard, I think before WWII, with narrow lanes and a very narrow, paved central reservation with frequent short gaps. It was eventually realigned to the south and vertically downward, leaving a bit of bypassed road for access.

Before this was done, there used to be a house on the left (south) side of the road about here. I think part of their living room was owned by the Welsh Office and leased back to the occupiers! It was demolished as part of the revamp.

The Abergele and St Asaph bypasses were pretty much simultaneous but with quite different detailing, presumably different designers. The St Asaph bypass was built without marginal strips and had them added decades later. This involved alterations to the bridges of the A525 interchange.

A section to the west of St A was dualled by adding a new carriageway with marginal strips but leaving the old carriageway without them for years, but they were eventually added later.

Some flat junctions and central reservation gaps still existed after first dualling but the gaps were closed later.

I seem to remember there's also some interesting and complicated history around Northop but I can't remember any details just now.

I'm too young to have been along the A5 on Anglesey prior to the A55 being constructed, but had no idea until now that there was a former dual section. Having looked at some aerial imagery just now, I'm guessing it was most likely here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2318583 ... ?entry=ttu

[wrinkly]

I'm too young to have been along the A5 on Anglesey prior to the A55 being constructed, but had no idea until now that there was a former dual section. Having looked at some aerial imagery just now, I'm guessing it was most likely here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2318583 ... ?entry=ttu

Yes, the dualled section seems to have been centred on the bridge over Afon Cefni. It may be that the original purpose of the dualling was to replace that bridge.

[wrinkly]

Just remembered another one. The flyover at Pentre Halkyn was built as a standalone junction improvement (slightly modified diamond junction) in the expectation that there would be a bit of online improvement to the west (actually NW) of it before the start of the Holywell bypass, but then the SE end of the Holywell bypass was moved SE to interact with it.

And of course there was a vast saga over routes in the Colwyn Bay/Conwy area.