rhyds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 14:17
The problem with "mom and pop" places is you're never sure what you're going to get. At least with a branded offering you've got a good idea of what its going to be available and what the opening hours are.
I think that is a very important bit. On the journey you know what you're getting. A small cafe might be a delight in your own town, or in a holiday destination, but on the move getting what you know has a lot of advantages.
The one that always annoys me is when you get to a town at 4:30pm, only to find all the independent cafes shut at 4pm but the pubs don't serve dinner till 5:30pm. At least a McDonald's is open all day and most of the evening!
I was going to say there’s a certain small country which is rather like that… but actually it’s quite often the case in England too!!
It surprised me when I went to Newquay a few years back how many places are not open 7 days a week. I just assumed it would be like the Lake District.
It was certainly true when I went to the Cotswolds recently. Make sure you’re there for afternoon tea by 3-30 at the latest…
See also those green "Local Services" signs that get put up each side of a random old transport café that was last open sometime during the Callaghan administration.
rhyds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 19:29
See also those green "Local Services" signs that get put up each side of a random old transport café that was last open sometime during the Callaghan administration.
To be pedantic, they would probably be vertical, blue-bordered, with black pictograms on a white background.
Only today, whilst I was driving to work I saw this sign… “hotels” should be plural, really. Not sure why there’s no Pubs, or knife&spoon.
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 22:14
It's interesting that services aren't allowed on the Interstates, hence the Gas Food Lodging signs at exits.
This was following lobbying from towns on US routes that would've lost business, particularly those on US-66 (which is partially the plot of Cars!). The pre-interstate toll roads all have online service areas as they were grandfathered in.
I was thinking it was something like this!
US40 has services between Nashville & Memphis, the only one I saw on my American holidays that looked like an MSA rather than a gas station with bigger than normal shop & cafe.
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 22:14
It's interesting that services aren't allowed on the Interstates, hence the Gas Food Lodging signs at exits.
This was following lobbying from towns on US routes that would've lost business, particularly those on US-66 (which is partially the plot of Cars!). The pre-interstate toll roads all have online service areas as they were grandfathered in.
I was thinking it was something like this!
US40 has services between Nashville & Memphis, the only one I saw on my American holidays that looked like an MSA rather than a gas station with bigger than normal shop & cafe.
I think you mean I-40? US Route 40 doesn't run through Tennessee, lol.
That being said, you do regularly find truck stops (as we call 'em) on interstates, and non-interstate routes as well, along with rest areas every so often.
Probably busy documenting grade crossings in the southeastern United States.
This was following lobbying from towns on US routes that would've lost business, particularly those on US-66 (which is partially the plot of Cars!). The pre-interstate toll roads all have online service areas as they were grandfathered in.
I was thinking it was something like this!
US40 has services between Nashville & Memphis, the only one I saw on my American holidays that looked like an MSA rather than a gas station with bigger than normal shop & cafe.
I think you mean I-40? US Route 40 doesn't run through Tennessee, lol.
That being said, you do regularly find truck stops (as we call 'em) on interstates, and non-interstate routes as well, along with rest areas every so often.
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 22:03
Yes I think I got the shield type mixed up!
The US differently shaped shields came from the original highway numbering, which were done by private enterprise in the early 1900s, who just went along with wooden numbers on shields and nailed them to an adjacent telephone pole. The 'route' the numbers showed were in a book printed by the company, which you had to buy to understand which number route to follow, sometimes done including photographs of the junction with an arrow showing which way. On initial success of this, several competing enterprises doing this sprang up, each with their own shape of sign and numbering system. Rand McNally started this way. By the time formalised US and State numbering systems came along, all the straightforward shapes, like diamonds, were already in use, so the distinctive shields of US highways came along.
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 22:03
Yes I think I got the shield type mixed up!
The US differently shaped shields came from the original highway numbering, which were done by private enterprise in the early 1900s, who just went along with wooden numbers on shields and nailed them to an adjacent telephone pole. The 'route' the numbers showed were in a book printed by the company, which you had to buy to understand which number route to follow, sometimes done including photographs of the junction with an arrow showing which way. On initial success of this, several competing enterprises doing this sprang up, each with their own shape of sign and numbering system. Rand McNally started this way. By the time formalised US and State numbering systems came along, all the straightforward shapes, like diamonds, were already in use, so the distinctive shields of US highways came along.
In 1981, my dad bought a big Rand McNally road atlas to plan our very first family trip to the US, which involved taking a hire car from DC across to Wisconsin to stay for a while with relatives before returning to where we’d started via a long loop taking in Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec City, Boston and NYC. I think the total mileage was about 5,000 which caused a bit of spluttering back at the rental return office despite my dad having opted for an unlimited miles deal.
Anyway, the Rand McNally atlas was for a few years the most thumbed book in the house as my dad, my brother and I discussed the original trip or planned future (mostly unrealised) fantasy American road trips. I think I’ve still got it somewhere.
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:48
Anyway, the Rand McNally atlas was for a few years the most thumbed book in the house as my dad, my brother and I discussed the original trip or planned future (mostly unrealised) fantasy American road trips. I think I’ve still got it somewhere.
I lost my respect for Rand McNally when they took over their longstanding competitor in this map market, H M Gousha; each had its own good features of its map styles. Both commonly distributed free folding state and city street maps, paid for and branded by mainstream oil companies, at their fuel stations. Rand took over Gousha about 30 years ago, the next day the Gousha cartography employees came in to work to find the building padlocked, it never opened again. That sort of thing can happen in certain states in the USA, just eliminating a competitor.
roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:48
Anyway, the Rand McNally atlas was for a few years the most thumbed book in the house as my dad, my brother and I discussed the original trip or planned future (mostly unrealised) fantasy American road trips. I think I’ve still got it somewhere.
I lost my respect for Rand McNally when they took over their longstanding competitor in this map market, H M Gousha; each had its own good features of its map styles. Both commonly distributed free folding state and city street maps, paid for and branded by mainstream oil companies, at their fuel stations. Rand took over Gousha about 30 years ago, the next day the Gousha cartography employees came in to work to find the building padlocked, it never opened again. That sort of thing can happen in certain states in the USA, just eliminating a competitor.
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 22:03
Yes I think I got the shield type mixed up!
The US differently shaped shields came from the original highway numbering, which were done by private enterprise in the early 1900s, who just went along with wooden numbers on shields and nailed them to an adjacent telephone pole. The 'route' the numbers showed were in a book printed by the company, which you had to buy to understand which number route to follow, sometimes done including photographs of the junction with an arrow showing which way. On initial success of this, several competing enterprises doing this sprang up, each with their own shape of sign and numbering system. Rand McNally started this way. By the time formalised US and State numbering systems came along, all the straightforward shapes, like diamonds, were already in use, so the distinctive shields of US highways came along.
That’s quite interesting. I also wonder how the system managed to spread to Australia, because rather than reach for a hierarchical numerical system like ours, theirs too was based on shields. Some states still do carry on this system for their own roads.
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 14:58
I know all the individual states have their own designs for state road signs, Arkansas also has county roads often with loose surfaces.
Almost the same too. A lot of road numbering was done at the state level there (but only very gradually), and there wasn’t any system of federal or national highways until the mid-70s.
Berk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 18:43
I also wonder how the system managed to spread to Australia, because rather than reach for a hierarchical numerical system like ours, theirs too was based on shields. Some states still do carry on this system for their own roads.
I'd imagine it was just influence from the US, the same way that Australian road signs are (and were) largely inspired by the MUTCD
Probably busy documenting grade crossings in the southeastern United States.
In the US, some states attempt to synchronise the numbers, so reference to "Highway 66" can only mean one route in the state, regardless of its controlling authority, others seem to have done it with no such co-ordination, so there are duplicates, and even separate state numbers along the US route.
The shields with state highway numbers in a representation of the shape of the state appear to be a more recent innovation, now quite common, at least for those where the state shape permits this. I wonder which one was the first. The AASHO came up with a default design long ago for State highway numbers, a circle within a square, which is slowly disappearing now. This interesting map shows them all :
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 21:48
California is one state that tries to avoid duplicating numbers where possible.
Alabama is another state that doesn't allow their state routes to duplicate US routes for the numbers, though they are allowed to duplicate Interstate numbers (likely due to the interstate system being created and built much later).
Georgia and Tennessee I know don't do that, and plenty of state routes there duplicate the US Routes in those states. It does seem that they do try to avoid having the state routes intersect the US Routes they duplicate though (for example, GA 1 is concurrent and co-signed with US 27 on the opposite side of Georgia from US 1).
Florida also allows duplications of the US Routes there, but that's also because they have a rather neat grid-based system for their state routes, so duplication is probably necessary there. FL A1A is apparently only numbered that way because it was originally FL 1, and basically runs right next to US 1, causing confusion among drivers. As it needed to be the #1 highway in the system, due to where it was placed in the grid (being the easternmost north/south state route), it go renumbered to A1A to reduce the confusion with US 1.
Probably busy documenting grade crossings in the southeastern United States.
I think that is a very important bit. On the journey you know what you're getting. A small cafe might be a delight in your own town, or in a holiday destination, but on the move getting what you know has a lot of advantages.
The one that always annoys me is when you get to a town at 4:30pm, only to find all the independent cafes shut at 4pm but the pubs don't serve dinner till 5:30pm. At least a McDonald's is open all day and most of the evening!
I was going to say there’s a certain small country which is rather like that… but actually it’s quite often the case in England too!!
It surprised me when I went to Newquay a few years back how many places are not open 7 days a week. I just assumed it would be like the Lake District.
It was certainly true when I went to the Cotswolds recently. Make sure you’re there for afternoon tea by 3-30 at the latest…
A few years ago heading the A55 back to Holyhead, was coming up to 5pm and we were making good time for the ferry, so turned off the main road to get something to eat. All of the eateries were closing for the day, though we did find a lovely pub for grub at Rhos On Sea.
I dare say if there was a proper online services though we would've just had whatever fast food tat they had.
A consideration we have now is our daughter was diagnosed coeliac, so these days we tend to do a little research into places that would provide a suitable gluten free meal off the road. Fast food places (In UK/Ireland at least) are surprisingly poor for this, excluding Subway (though the Dromore one recently either didn't have the appropriate GF bread or couldn't be bothered), the Lusk MSA in Ireland had nothing that she could eat other than snacks from the shop.
BF2142 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 09:40
There's an American roadside services chain called Buc-ees which operate large-scale service areas - the new one in Tennessee has 120 fuel pumps. Would this work in the UK on our major routes?
BF2142 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 09:40
There's an American roadside services chain called Buc-ees which operate large-scale service areas - the new one in Tennessee has 120 fuel pumps. Would this work in the UK on our major routes?
What UK roads need is the exact opposite of that. The French model of there being parking, toilets, a picnic bench and play area and nothing else.
Completely agree. Driving on a motorway in the UK needing the loo at any vaguely busy period is a massive pain in the neck, having to navigate a completely rammed MSA. It can often be a nightmare to simply park up on busy days. Worst example for me was back in 2019, a few days before Christmas, wanting a quick loo pitstop at Hopwood Park on the M42. Took at least half an hour to merely get onto the site, never mind park up. Could have reached Corley on the M6 by the time I'd managed to do the necessary!
But it will never happen as nobody would be able to cash in from it, gone are the days when something useful for the general public would be provided without the need for someone to make money on it.
BF2142 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 09:40
There's an American roadside services chain called Buc-ees which operate large-scale service areas - the new one in Tennessee has 120 fuel pumps. Would this work in the UK on our major routes?
What UK roads need is the exact opposite of that. The French model of there being parking, toilets, a picnic bench and play area and nothing else.
A lot of those have been closed or upgraded to full services, due to them being attractive for crime. However of course a lot of full French service areas have all those features as well.
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