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Summers-lad wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 19:51Also, Cupar was is old county town of Fife, and a local centre, so it would have made sense for the main road to go that way. When the Tay Road Bridge opened, through traffic from mid-Fife to Dundee would have become more important, so the less populated route was presumably seen as the one to be given a primary designation.
You could argue that, but Trowbridge is the modern county town of Wiltshire, and you get the impression that the major routes avoid it.
The mighty A361 passes rather awkwardly through the town, as does the far less significant A363, but the much more important A36 and A350 both give it a wide berth.
A thread about categorising the different ways in which "county towns" have (or have not) found themselves as hubs of the modern road system ? Perhaps not as we may spend ages trying to categorise just what is a county and what is a county town ??
Ah-ha! Good idea ....
The historic county town of Wiltshire is Wilton, which is located right next to Salisbury, and that has long been quite a major hub for both road and rail. However, when they made Trowbridge the modern county town (1889 - I had to look that up), apparently it was chosen because of the ease of travel from both Salisbury and Swindon.
In the grander scheme of things, however, Trowbridge is nothing like a hub for either road or rail to anything like the extent of either of those two larger settlements!
Owain wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 18:07
In the grander scheme of things, however, Trowbridge is nothing like a hub for either road or rail to anything like the extent of either of those two larger settlements!
Trowbridge always feels like a weird choice in modern context, as Devizes is almost central in Wiltshire
However, I expect it was picked due to its rail links. While Devizes had a railway at the time, it wasn't possible to access it from Swindon directly, whereas Trowbridge was/is, and being roughly in the middle of Salisbury and Swindon on the railway
Owain wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 18:07In the grander scheme of things, however, Trowbridge is nothing like a hub for either road or rail to anything like the extent of either of those two larger settlements!
Trowbridge always feels like a weird choice in modern context, as Devizes is almost central in Wiltshire
However, I expect it was picked due to its rail links. While Devizes had a railway at the time, it wasn't possible to access it from Swindon directly, whereas Trowbridge was/is, and being roughly in the middle of Salisbury and Swindon on the railway
Trowbridge doesn't even have its own dialling code - 01225 is Bath!
Interestingly, when the French decided to change a few things in 1789, they originally planned that their new departements should each be squares with sides of 66.7 km. This plan was modified and the departements were made of roughly equal size and of a size that anybody travelling on horseback from the prefecture could reach anywhere within the departement in 24 hours. This suggests very strongly that the prefecture (or what we would call the county town) was also the communications hub for the departement (or became the communications hub).
roadtester wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 18:46
Far from being a natural hub for roads in Cambridgeshire, Cambridge feels more like the main place to avoid in the county in traffic terms!
It would seem to me that both Cambridge and Norwich are 'hubs' to some degree, but through traffic tends to follow the 'rim' of the wheel.
Hertford isn't really a hub and neither is Bedford. Chelmsford is debatable. I think you could argue that Aylesbury, the modern county town of Buckinghamshire, is a hub.
Cornwall had an interesting case. Prior to 1835, Launceton was considered to be the County Town insofar as that is where the quarterly assizes were held (thereby saving the circuit judge the trouble of trekkign the length of Cornwall). In theat year, the assizes moved to Bodmin and remained there until 1972 when the assizes were merged with the County Courts in Truro. This move was probably triggered by Dr Beeching axing the branch line that joined Bodmin to the main GWR Penzance-Paddington line.
trickstat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 19:38
It would seem to me that both Cambridge and Norwich are 'hubs' to some degree, but through traffic tends to follow the 'rim' of the wheel.
I would say that Norwich is very hub-like, it is by far the largest settlement in Norfolk and I can count 14 A or B roads radiating from it or near to it, and a few unclassified roads as well
Newry’s a city but the county town (for the ceremonial county) is Downpatrick. To add to the confusion, the Newry River is the boundary between Down and Armagh.
Downpatrick is a route centre, albeit rather dreadful, and the main junctions are on the north side (A25, A7 and A22) as the A25 starts again in the Town Centre, however its role is slightly different and is probably the county town because it is a Cathedral town. There is another Cathedral town in the county, Dromore, but geographically Dromore and Newry (Newry also being in Dromore diocese) are on the periphery.
Most of the six county towns of NI are reasonably central in their counties. Co Londonderry, of which Coleraine is technically the county town (Derry being the county borough of Londonderry in its own right), is the exception, because of the Sperrins.
The trouble is that not only do County Boundaries change but so do the county towns and of course we also have combined authorities - in short its a mess !
I live in Marton-In-Cleveland which in my lifetime has been in :-
North Riding County Council - County Town Northallerton
County Borough of Teesside - County Town Middlesbrough
Middlesbrough - Unitary Authority
In reality now however Transport planning is done by the Tees Valley Combined Authority which actually works as its responsibility covers road, rail, ports and the airport at the regional level so we finally we have some joined up planning happening. https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/
However at the borough council level we have the town of Nunthorpe split between Redcar & Cleveland and Middlesborough so responsibility for education, social services etc is artificially split between Middlesbrough and Redcar by the railway line here which makes no sense at all. https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5278004 ... &entry=ttu
Platform 1 is in Middlesbrough and Platform 2 is in Redcar !
When it comes to roads however the strategic routes including the A1(M), A66 , A174 and A19 are managed by Highways England
KeithW wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 15:16
The trouble is that not only do County Boundaries change but so do the county towns and of course we also have combined authorities - in short its a mess !
I live in Marton-In-Cleveland which in my lifetime has been in :-
North Riding County Council - County Town Northallerton
County Borough of Teesside - County Town Middlesbrough
Middlesbrough - Unitary Authority
In reality now however Transport planning is done by the Tees Valley Combined Authority which actually works as its responsibility covers road, rail, ports and the airport at the regional level so we finally we have some joined up planning happening. https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/
However at the borough council level we have the town of Nunthorpe split between Redcar & Cleveland and Middlesbrough so responsibility for education, social services etc is artificially split between Middlesbrough and Redcar by the railway line here which makes no sense at all. https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5278004 ... &entry=ttu
Platform 1 is in Middlesbrough and Platform 2 is in Redcar !
When it comes to roads however the strategic routes including the A1(M), A66 , A174 and A19 are managed by Highways England
Marton was, between 1974-96 in both the County of Cleveland (county town Middlesbrough) and the lower-tier Borough of Middlesbrough. But maybe this was during the time when you were living outside the area?
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KeithW wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 15:16
The trouble is that not only do County Boundaries change
This is the scheduled reminder that county boundaries haven't changed since 1844.
Local authorities are established, change boundaries, and disestablished and new ones put in their place. And all of those mentioned are local authorities, not counties.
Despite what the likes of Wikipedia will have you believe, the present North Yorkshire Council is a completely different entity to the previous North Yorkshire County Council.
Steven
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
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Here in Ireland, quite a few county towns would qualify for roads hub status - Portlaoise in County Laois in the midlands would be the most obvious contender, with the former N7 and N8 converging here, along with the key National secondary N80 and a few important R roads.
Kilkenny would also be a classic hub, located at the central point of a series of converging routes such as the N77, N76, N10 and N78 and a number of key R roads.
Navan, located bang in the centre of County Meath in the Dublin commuter belt, is another classic hub with the former N3 (R147) converging with the N51 and a series of key R routes. Also the Boyne and Blackwater rivers converge in Navan.
Honourable mention goes to Athlone in County Westmeath, whilst not the county town, owing to its geography at the very centre of Ireland and with it being a key crossing point of the River Shannon including the large Lough Ree immediately to the north, functions as a hub for the M6/N6, N61, N55, N62 and a couple of key R roads.
"Lough Ree, oh Lough Ree,
Where the three counties meet,
Longford, Westmeath and Roscommon ..."
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I was in a meeting yesterday where Transport Scotland were describing their plans to change the control destinations for Scottish trunk road signing, basically if the place isn't on the trunk road network it won't be a control destination going forward and some new places on newer trunk roads will. So, for example, St Andrews will be dropped but Skye will be added.
lose: (v): to suffer the deprivation of - to lose one's job; to lose one's life.
loose: (a): free or released from fastening or attachment - a loose end.
This is the problem when speaking of County Towns, you have to clarify the time you are talking about.
I lived in Marton before 1974 at which time the relevant county town was Northallerton, in practical terms if I wanted to go to the local tip that was in Stokesley 6 miles away - about a 10 minute drive.
Now the recycling centre is in Haverton Hill 8 miles away and on a good day you can do it 20 minutes.
I moved away from Marton in 1979 first to Kent (New Romney and Lydd), then to the London Borough of Harrow followed by Gamlingay, South Cambridgeshire finally moving back to Marton in 2016 when I retired. When I had some stuff to dump (empty cardboard boxes) I reverted to memory and drove to Stokesley recycling centre where I was turned away as I was not in North Yorkshire any more despite being less than 100 yards from my old house. As for Middlesbrough Council I was underwhelmed when I tried to register for council tax as the council flatly refused to let me register as they didn't seem to have a record of the address. With the aid of my councillor I finally managed to sort things out. It seemed that the Postcode they had on the system was wrong, it was non existent in fact which raises the question had the previous residents ever actually paid council tax ? I suspect not as they left no forwarding address.
For most non food purposes such as banking, a proper post office and a decent restaurant I actually drive to Stokesley where parking is free ! Dont try this on market day
Dougman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 08:35
I was in a meeting yesterday where Transport Scotland were describing their plans to change the control destinations for Scottish trunk road signing, basically if the place isn't on the trunk road network it won't be a control destination going forward and some new places on newer trunk roads will. So, for example, St Andrews will be dropped but Skye will be added.
Might end one of the quirks between St Andrews and Edinburgh where northbound St Andrews is signed off the A92 for the A914, but southbound at Cupar Edinburgh is signed for the A91 to the north and join the A92 there.
