The end of city centre Multistorey Carparks

[Big L]

“Ringway” and “around the town centre” imply the presence of a ring road that isn’t there.

[Big Nick]

EFDC have just built a new MSCP as part of their grand plan for redeveloping and regenerating the town. It's all being done by their own in-house arms-length building group, Qualis.

1: Build the new MSCP on the largest car park site in town.
2: Leave space for a cinema or other retail opportunity.
3: Build a new Leisure Centre (pool and gym) on the other car park.
4: Sell off the old Sports Centre for housing.
5: Demolish the old primary school for more housing.
6: Build more homes on the old council offices and car park.

Sounds good, right?
But the new MSCP has less spaces than the old car parks combined. Qualis are pulling a fast one by stating that the new car park will have the same number of spaces as both old ones (but only when you add in the 6 Blue Badge spots at the leisure centre). They are conveniently not mentioning the loss of 40 spaces at our old Sports Centre or the 100 at the old council offices (more housing).

For starters the planners didn't think about including space for the van drivers who populate the Town Market, or even those visiting in camper vans etc. So it had to be redesigned.
The doors are too heavy to open with ease.
The fencing around the top floor (level 3) was suddenly found to be ideal for toddlers to climb over (4ft high, horizontal bars) so they had to close it off until that got put right. But it was OK because it passed an independent inspection before opening
And did I mention that people think it's ugly and unnecessary?

The new Leisure Centre was projected to have a basement car park but now it only has SIX spaces for disabled drivers. No room for minibuses or coaches either.
To top it all off the parking fees are now 24hr. Previously you could park for free or cheap after 6pm and on weekends, now you have to pay. So that's not going to encourage people to drive in from outlying villages in the evening or on Sunday for some exercise.

There's also no idea of who will want to build and run a 2 screen cinema in a small town...

[vlad]

If anything in Manchester (and the Salford side of the Irwell) surface car parking feels like it is on the way out as the property developers scramble to build high density on every last plot of land available. In the recent past I can think of a couple of new multi storey car parks that have opened inside the ring road, although my memory of what was on the land before is a little hazy.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DQxGLgTYPjPu3DF78 close to Salford Central

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DEkwNJvasx7jvAuWA at the new Circle Square development

That would be, respectively, a surface-level car park and perhaps the most famous unused sliproad in the country.

[BOH]

There have been a few comments regarding how older multi-storey car parks cannot be re-purposed for EV parking / charging and the reason given is the additional weight of EV vehicles.

However, surely this can all be overcome by reducing the number of bays per floor by widening them out. So if a floor currently holds 150 vehicles, simply re-mark the lines to have 100 spaces for example?

[Jim606]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

Ah, this is the one I was think about. Thank you for posting. So, it might be an educated guess to say that this is the only listed MSCP in the UK, not unless anyone know any different?

There is an open MSCP above Preston Bus Station which presumably shares the Grade II listing of the bus station itself.

Yes, your right. I've just checked https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1416042 So, that's two listed MSCP that we now know about on this tread.

[rhyds]

There have been a few comments regarding how older multi-storey car parks cannot be re-purposed for EV parking / charging and the reason given is the additional weight of EV vehicles.

However, surely this can all be overcome by reducing the number of bays per floor by widening them out. So if a floor currently holds 150 vehicles, simply re-mark the lines to have 100 spaces for example?

This is true, however you still have the issue of narrow entry/exit ramps which is much harder to fix, as well as how and where you run the heavy current wiring for the EV points.

Also, you'd have to raise your parking rates quite substantially to cover the 1/3rd loss of capacity

[RichardA35]

Also, I wonder whether 're-spacing' the parking area could be carried out to contain the amount of weight a given floor would need to support - charging spaces tend to be bigger than normal parking spaces anyway.

Doesn't usually work quite like that.
From memory and my simple view of structures:
A car park structure is usually designed on a uniform loading per square metre related to the theoretical pattern of vehicles that could be fitted irrespective of marked spaces. (2.5kN/sqm Uniformly Distributed Load plus a 10kN point load rings a bell - A person is approx 0.6kN)
For a bridge a theoretical pattern of vehicles (notional lanes) is used to represent the HGVs that could be fitted over the bridge.
For example a 7.3m carriageway with 2 hardstrips making 9.3m of surfacing width could have 3 notional lanes of HGVs over it at any one time (perhaps as a result of an incident).

[AndyB]

So the model for a multi-storey would be based on square metres divided by area of average cars for a theoretical capacity not too far removed from “every space full, whole circulation including ramps filled with cars waiting to get in or out”

[RichardA35]

So the model for a multi-storey would be based on square metres divided by area of average cars for a theoretical capacity not too far removed from “every space full, whole circulation including ramps filled with cars waiting to get in or out”

It's even more basic really - the structure is divided into areas of "car" or "no car" and the nominal loading described above applied over the entire area of "car" with bollards or similar to stop cars getting into "no car" areas.

[John McAdam]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

It's still a car park, the creative space occupies the third (top) floor.

[roadtester]

On the subject of listed multi-storey car parks, there's this one in Brewer Street in London.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1063903

That said, it now appears to have been reimagined as a 'curated creative space' rather than continuing to be used as a car park.

https://brewerstreetcarpark.com/

It's still a car park, the creative space occupies the third (top) floor.

Thanks - interesting.

[Jim606]

I found this article https://www.building.co.uk/buildings/pr ... 57.article discussing the changing fortunes of city centre MSCPs. There is even an example of (another listed one https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1393648) being converted into a hotel at Balderton Street in central London.

[roadtester]

I found this article https://www.building.co.uk/buildings/pr ... 57.article discussing the changing fortunes of city centre MSCPs. There is even an example of (another listed one https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1393648) being converted into a hotel at Balderton Street in central London.

Fascinating article. Interesting mention of the spiral at Lingotto in Turin (Owain knows all about that one!) which shows that even a concrete car ramp can be a thing of exceptional beauty.

[Barkstar]

Probably one of the most famous MSCP's disappear in the last few years was the 'Get Carter' carpark in Gateshead https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... k-18677174 the famous scene involved Michael Cane throwing the actor Brian Moseley from the top. It was ok though as Mr Moseley went on to star in Coronation Street as Alf Roberts the shopkeeper. I don't think we'll ever see anything like this Brutalist style MSCP being built again in a central location.

After it was demolished the council sold off bits of concrete in a presentation box for £5 - And I got one as it's one of my all time favourite films. I did drive passed it once but didn't click what it was. I think keeping an MSCP in an acceptable condition is near impossible, they all end up with stairwells that smell of bleach and parking areas covered in old oil and squashed pigeons. Lovely.

[KeithW]

The Gateshead car park was just in the wrong place, it was no longer a viable shopping centre. The business was going to the Metro Centre and Newcastle City Centre. In fact Trinity Street Car Park was pretty much the last part of the complex to go. Take a look at it in 2008 and everything was shuttered.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.9626499 ... ?entry=ttu

It did not age well, the poor condition of the place in 1970 didnt bode well. Subsidence was a big problem as much of the site was built on old mine workings. Donohue in the film is a thinly disguised representation of T Dan Smith who was a fraudster of the worst kind. One of his other projects was the Cleveland Centre in Middlesbrough which is in decline. Around half the shops have closed and much of what is still open consists of stores such as Poundland and Convenience Stores. The ultimate irony was after his release from jail T Dan Smith ended up in a council flat in one of the developments he was responsible for.

What is hard to forgive is the demolition of John Dobson's Royal Arcade.
https://www.archiseek.com/2013/interior ... newcastle/

[Vierwielen]

The current UK norm for a parking space is 2.4 m by 4.8 m. Many parking garages are designed around these dimensions with the result that there is 7.2 m between pillars (ie space for three cars). Given that cars are getting wider and wider, 2.4 m is often insufficient for certain larger cars such as the Range ROver L469 which is 2.05 m wide, leaving only 35 cm in which to open a door. Moreover this vehicle is over 5 m in length. In short, it is too buig for a standard parking space.

[Bendo]

I think keeping an MSCP in an acceptable condition is near impossible, they all end up with stairwells that smell of bleach and parking areas covered in old oil and squashed pigeons. Lovely.

I think that very much depends on the competence of who manages the car park. Most parking in Liverpool City Centre these days is pretty extortionate so my car park of choice is Mount Pleasant MSCP
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZAYiZnnM2ENdm9pV8 which is run by the council.

Its a pretty grim construction, the lifts broke at the start of last year and rather than fix them they have simply but signs up to state no lifts. That said, inside, thr stairwell is clean and doesn't stink of urine etc. At a max of £5 / day using properly configured ANPR to bill the correct amount rather than what some unscrupulous private conpanies do, its cheaper than some charge for an hour. It did used to close at 7 but went 24/7 a year ago.

[jabbaboy]

I think keeping an MSCP in an acceptable condition is near impossible, they all end up with stairwells that smell of bleach and parking areas covered in old oil and squashed pigeons. Lovely.

Not sure about that, there's quite a few car parks which are alright - just depends who run it. I've always found Q Park car parks to generally be pleasant enough, ignoring pricing. Most multi storeys connected to shopping centre's directly, generally are alright aswell.

NCP and some council car parks on the other hand...

[Owain]

I found this article https://www.building.co.uk/buildings/pr ... 57.article discussing the changing fortunes of city centre MSCPs. There is even an example of (another listed one https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... ry/1393648) being converted into a hotel at Balderton Street in central London.

Fascinating article. Interesting mention of the spiral at Lingotto in Turin (Owain knows all about that one!) which shows that even a concrete car ramp can be a thing of exceptional beauty.

It took a while to find, but here it is:

Trust the Italians to make a thing of exceptional beauty out of concrete!

[wallmeerkat]

They seem to be thriving in car-centric Belfast, this one for example was built in 2020 - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5956995 ... ?entry=ttu , this one 2019 - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.6039822 ... ?entry=ttu

However Belfast is losing surface car parks, the kind that would've been demolished buildings, to new developments - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5973763 ... ?entry=ttu