Future of road and motorway network around Cambridge

[B1040]

Still loads of contract buses going to and from Ramsey.
I pass them on my way somewhere else!
Also buses to most of the other schools, I almost drive past the Dew's depot.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Still loads of contract buses going to and from Ramsey.
I pass them on my way somewhere else!
Also buses to most of the other schools, I almost drive past the Dew's depot.

Ron Dew's Coaches - that's another name from the past - good to know they're still going.

[B1040]

Still loads of contract buses going to and from Ramsey.
I pass them on my way somewhere else!
Also buses to most of the other schools, I almost drive past the Dew's depot.

Ron Dew's Coaches - that's another name from the past - good to know they're still going.

Very much so.
They run a lot of public service buses round here after Stagecoach pulled out.

[Chris5156]

School bus services have also been cancelled over the years, so that's generally no longer an option - public services or nothing.

Indeed - and anyone who does not regularly use the bus would probably be surprised just how sparse public bus services are, in most parts of the UK, compared even to 10 or 15 years ago. The idea that there will be a bus that gets you where you need to go, first thing in the morning, is not something you can just assume even in a decent sized town.

[Owain]

School bus services have also been cancelled over the years, so that's generally no longer an option - public services or nothing.

Indeed - and anyone who does not regularly use the bus would probably be surprised just how sparse public bus services are, in most parts of the UK, compared even to 10 or 15 years ago. The idea that there will be a bus that gets you where you need to go, first thing in the morning, is not something you can just assume even in a decent sized town.

Is that a recent thing?

The Gloucestershire village where I grew up during the 1980s had just one scheduled bus service per week. It went to Monmouth on a Wednesday which - compared with Chepstow, Lydney, Coleford, or even Gloucester - just wasn't a place that anybody particularly needed to go.

When my (then) wife moved from Italy to join me in Lancaster in 2000, she kept applying for jobs in unlikely remote places throughout Lancashire: Fleetwood, Alston... I kept asking her how, considering she didn't drive, she was planning on commuting. She said "I'll get the bus", to which my reply was "Not in this country you won't".

[Steven]

School bus services have also been cancelled over the years, so that's generally no longer an option - public services or nothing.

Indeed - and anyone who does not regularly use the bus would probably be surprised just how sparse public bus services are, in most parts of the UK, compared even to 10 or 15 years ago. The idea that there will be a bus that gets you where you need to go, first thing in the morning, is not something you can just assume even in a decent sized town.

Is that a recent thing?

No, it's been slow erosion since the 1960s.

Around here, we lost some thanks to having our buses handed to WMPTE, some more when WMPTE's boundaries were (mostly) set to match the far too tight local authority boundaries, and another set when WMPTE's services were privatised, then it's been a slow drip feed of capitalism ever since.

It's worth remembering that outside London, bus services are barely subsidised for the public good and are simply now ways of making money for the big bus companies.

To repeat, there are no traditional-style school services anywhere near here. Individual schools may run some very limited coach or minibus trips, but that's it.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Indeed - and anyone who does not regularly use the bus would probably be surprised just how sparse public bus services are, in most parts of the UK, compared even to 10 or 15 years ago. The idea that there will be a bus that gets you where you need to go, first thing in the morning, is not something you can just assume even in a decent sized town.

Is that a recent thing?

No, it's been slow erosion since the 1960s.

Around here, we lost some thanks to having our buses handed to WMPTE, some more when WMPTE's boundaries were (mostly) set to match the far too tight local authority boundaries, and another set when WMPTE's services were privatised, then it's been a slow drip feed of capitalism ever since.

It's worth remembering that outside London, bus services are barely subsidised for the public good and are simply now ways of making money for the big bus companies.

To repeat, there are no traditional-style school services anywhere near here. Individual schools may run some very limited coach or minibus trips, but that's it.

They're used in Warwickshire https://soluscoaches.com/services/school-services/ that's just a small local coach company

[Owain]

Is that a recent thing?

No, it's been slow erosion since the 1960s.

Around here, we lost some thanks to having our buses handed to WMPTE, some more when WMPTE's boundaries were (mostly) set to match the far too tight local authority boundaries, and another set when WMPTE's services were privatised, then it's been a slow drip feed of capitalism ever since.

It's worth remembering that outside London, bus services are barely subsidised for the public good and are simply now ways of making money for the big bus companies.

To repeat, there are no traditional-style school services anywhere near here. Individual schools may run some very limited coach or minibus trips, but that's it.

They're used in Warwickshire https://soluscoaches.com/services/school-services/ that's just a small local coach company

In Gloucestershire we did have a contract bus service from my village to the secondary school, which was seven miles away. I'd imagine that such a service still exists, as there really wasn't a viable alternative, but it wouldn't surprise me if most parents now have to pay for it.

Come to think of it, when they moved from Derry to Leeds, my partner was surprised that her daughter would simply have to use the local scheduled bus service into the city centre and walk to her sixth form college from there; they did still have some dedicated school contract services in Derry as recently as 2017.

[KeithW]

Why was the expressway killed off? It seems like it should be revived again. I know road building projects aren't fashionable but with 150k new homes there would be a genuine need for at least one new road be it a major a road or motorway.

Peterborough is also growing very rapidly and forecast to have about 240,000 by 2040 I think. But they have a lot of spare road capacity because of the A1(M). The M11 is just d2 past the M11.

If we're talking about development in wider Cambridgeshire there's an argument for maybe improving the A10.

An A428(M) or M428 maybe?

The official reason is as mentioned here.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has today (18 March 2021) announced the cancellation of the Oxford-Cambridge (Ox-Cam) expressway, after analysis confirmed the proposed project was not cost-effective.

Highways England had been developing potential options for a road link between Oxford and Milton Keynes. However, following close work with local partners since 2014, recent analysis shows that the benefits the road would deliver are outweighed by the costs associated with the project. 
viewtopic.php?t=36423

The simple reality was as follows
1) The cost was huge
2) Both Oxford and Cambridge are already over developed, just take a look at both cities
3) Finding a viable route was difficult and expensive.
4) Generating more road traffic is rather at odds with the notion of reducing emissions

There was a rather extensive thread on the subject here on Sabre

I thought this deserves it's own thread, rather than getting discussed in assorted threads about other roads.

As others have mentioned, the interim report is out. However, I found this presentation to the stakeholder reference group to be more forthcoming. Starting at p. 46 (PDF) it describes three shortlisted options:

Option A: Southern - M1 J13-Leighton Buzzard-Aylesbury-Thame-M40 J8-Abingdon
Option B: Central - M1 J13-South East of Bicester (goes direct, not via Buckingham or Bicester)
Option C: Northern - M1 J13-Buckingham-Bicester-South East of Bicester

There are also some interesting 'Oxford sub options':

S1 - connects Options B and C with what looks like a widened A34 through Botley
S2 and S3 - connect Option B or C via a bypass to the South and East of Oxford. S2 looks entirely offline while S3 flirts with the M40 (can't say if it uses the M40 itself or is just parallel to it).

The flaw in the plan as put forward is massive, the A421 through Milton Keynes which as I recall includes no less than 16 roundabouts and which is already carrying 25,000 vehicles per day on urban roads.

As for the much vaunted East West Rail limited progress has been made east of Bletchley and I suspect whoever forms the next government will simply not be able to persuade the treasury to find the money to do more given the level of national debt.

A modest improvement of the A10 would in fact be good idea but ultimately it will also attract more ribbon development. I spent many years travelling between Cambridge and Oxford on a variety of routes as I worked in the Cambridge Office but my boss was based on the Harwell campus south of Oxford. This was my option by road.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Gamling ... &entry=ttu

By rail the route was via central London and took over 3 hours.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Gamling ... &entry=ttu

As for the A34 its already overloaded with in excess of 65,000 vehicles per day on roads like this.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7483631 ... &entry=ttu

The improved A421 from Cambridge to the M1 at Brogborough it has generated a LOT of extra traffic hence the horrible congestion at the Black Cat, traffic levels around Bedford are already in excess of 65,000 vehicles per day.

The suggested alternative (East West Rail) has made little real progress in the last decade, its pretty much hung up at Bletchley with no forecast dates for extending beyond it, here is a view of the old line west of the A1.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1330433 ... ?entry=ttu

[Big L]

…
The simple reality was as follows
…
2) Both Oxford and Cambridge are already over developed, just take a look at both cities
…

And yet here we are with a proposal to massively expand Cambridge.

[roadtester]

2) Both Oxford and Cambridge are already over developed, just take a look at both cities

The are seriously underdeveloped. They are not anything like fulfilling their massive potential to act as the main growth motors for the UK economy.

[KeithW]

And yet here we are with a proposal to massively expand Cambridge.

The problem is that the available sites are pretty much maxed out even if you accept people driving in from 40 miles around. This is a classic example of boosterism where the zeitgeist is that its necessary to concentrate everyone in one place inflating rents and housing costs because there is some magic inherent in doing that. 50 years ago the great hope for Cambridge was Pye/Philips electronics manufacturing. I was actually offered a job there in 1973. At that time all there was from Girton Interchange to the Airport along the then A45 (now A14) were open fields.

Read it and weep.
https://www.pye-story.org/history/the-years-of-decline

I ended up Lydd , Kent working at Dungeness B Nuclear Power Station

For the record my daily commute to Cambridge before we switched to home working was 20 miles each way which on a good day took about 35 minutes each way, more like an hour if I had to park up at the Madingley Park and Ride Site, which most people did because parking at the Grafton Centre cost £25 per day while the Park and Ride only cost £3.

The reality of the 'Expressway' was that it was to allow ribbon development between Oxford and Cambridge along the A428/A421 corridor with minimal planning control. Great for property speculators, not so much for everyone else meanwhile East West Rail is simply dragging its feet with little real progress having been made in the last 10 years.

I see no real possibility of any party financing road development for the benefit of speculative builders after the next election.

[roadtester]

And yet here we are with a proposal to massively expand Cambridge.

The problem is that the available sites are pretty much maxed out even if you accept people driving in from 40 miles around. This is a classic example of boosterism where the zeitgeist is that its necessary to concentrate everyone in one place inflating rents and housing costs because there is some magic inherent in doing that. 50 years ago the great hope for Cambridge was Pye/Philips electronics manufacturing. I was actually offered a job there in 1973. At that time all there was from Girton Interchange to the Airport along the then A45 (now A14) were open fields.

Read it and weep.
https://www.pye-story.org/history/the-years-of-decline

I ended up Lydd , Kent working at Dungeness B Nuclear Power Station

For the record my daily commute to Cambridge before we switched to home working was 20 miles each way which on a good day took about 35 minutes each way, more like an hour if I had to park up at the Madingley Park and Ride Site, which most people did because parking at the Grafton Centre cost £25 per day while the Park and Ride only cost £3.

The reality of the 'Expressway' was that it was to allow ribbon development between Oxford and Cambridge along the A428/A421 corridor with minimal planning control. Great for property speculators, not so much for everyone else meanwhile East West Rail is simply dragging its feet with little real progress having been made in the last 10 years.

I see no real possibility of any party financing road development for the benefit of speculative builders after the next election.

They are underdeveloped because there has been under investment.

That needs to be corrected.

[qwertyK]

As said the argument they are "over developed" makes no sense when they are literally proposing an entire new city of around 300k to be added onto cambridge.

The A421 via milton keynes would have to go via a bypass yes.

[roadtester]

As said the argument they are "over developed" makes no sense when they are literally proposing an entire new city of around 300k to be added onto cambridge.

The A421 via milton keynes would have to go via a bypass yes.

It just needs to go straight on after it crosses the M1. I think as an interim pragmatic measure the Oxford/Cambridge Expressway could initially be bodged/improvised by just feeding a new bit of A421 from there to the A43 and thence the M40.

[thatapanydude]

As said the argument they are "over developed" makes no sense when they are literally proposing an entire new city of around 300k to be added onto cambridge.

The A421 via milton keynes would have to go via a bypass yes.

It just needs to go straight on after it crosses the M1. I think as an interim pragmatic measure the Oxford/Cambridge Expressway could initially be bodged/improvised by just feeding a new bit of A421 from there to the A43 and thence the M40.

Another way would be to just dual the current 421 online bit by bit. Even a basic 60mph D2 would be ideal and achievable but doing up the sections either side of Buckingham when you already have a bit of D2.

[roadtester]

As said the argument they are "over developed" makes no sense when they are literally proposing an entire new city of around 300k to be added onto cambridge.

The A421 via milton keynes would have to go via a bypass yes.

It just needs to go straight on after it crosses the M1. I think as an interim pragmatic measure the Oxford/Cambridge Expressway could initially be bodged/improvised by just feeding a new bit of A421 from there to the A43 and thence the M40.

Another way would be to just dual the current 421 online bit by bit. Even a basic 60mph D2 would be ideal and achievable but doing up the sections either side of Buckingham when you already have a bit of D2.

Yes, true. Basically it would be a similar approach to the idea of using the A358 and upgrading that between the A303 and the M5, rather than doing the last bit of the A303 properly all the way to Exeter.

[ChrisH]

As said the argument they are "over developed" makes no sense when they are literally proposing an entire new city of around 300k to be added onto cambridge.

The A421 via milton keynes would have to go via a bypass yes.

It just needs to go straight on after it crosses the M1. I think as an interim pragmatic measure the Oxford/Cambridge Expressway could initially be bodged/improvised by just feeding a new bit of A421 from there to the A43 and thence the M40.

I had understood that Milton Keynes has reserved land for a future re-routing of the A421, along the south-east flank of the urban area. This would overcome the weakest part of this route and would hopefully lead to an upgrade of either the A418 via Aylesbury, or a cross-country route to Bicester.

Thanks to British planning, the Oxford-Cambridge arc will be served by a high-quality road and rail link. The only downside is that the rail link is between Oxford and MK; and the road link is between MK and Cambridge.

[KeithW]

I had understood that Milton Keynes has reserved land for a future re-routing of the A421, along the south-east flank of the urban area. This would overcome the weakest part of this route and would hopefully lead to an upgrade of either the A418 via Aylesbury, or a cross-country route to Bicester.

Thanks to British planning, the Oxford-Cambridge arc will be served by a high-quality road and rail link. The only downside is that the rail link is between Oxford and MK; and the road link is between MK and Cambridge.

At the moment the only railway route from Oxford to Milton Keynes is via Coventry or London there is however a coach service from Oxford to Cambridge but 4 hours on a bus is not my idea of fun. As I recall they make stop at Milton Keynes Coachway, when my mum came to visit she always went via coach and I would pick her up here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.055544, ... &entry=ttu

[ChrisH]

I had understood that Milton Keynes has reserved land for a future re-routing of the A421, along the south-east flank of the urban area. This would overcome the weakest part of this route and would hopefully lead to an upgrade of either the A418 via Aylesbury, or a cross-country route to Bicester.

Thanks to British planning, the Oxford-Cambridge arc will be served by a high-quality road and rail link. The only downside is that the rail link is between Oxford and MK; and the road link is between MK and Cambridge.

At the moment the only railway route from Oxford to Milton Keynes is via Coventry or London there is however a coach service from Oxford to Cambridge but 4 hours on a bus is not my idea of fun. As I recall they make stop at Milton Keynes Coachway, when my mum came to visit she always went via coach and I would pick her up here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.055544, ... &entry=ttu

The East-West Railway is bringing rail services back between these places, which will start running next year.

https://eastwestrail.co.uk/news/latest- ... meets-west