One route, Multiple numbers…..
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
I'd also prefer A726 to be returned to its original route (now A727) and its extension to Kirkmuirhill restored. Perhaps not all that popular as a through route but it can be useful. The relatively new section between East Kilbride and the M77 would make more sense as an extended A725 (with A726 being the junior partner in the resultant multiplex).
A72/A721 comes to mind too. Going west, A72 should be rerouted over A721 as far as the A70, and then either over A743 to Lanark or continuing over A721 to Carluke. (New number obviously needed for current A72 west of Lanark in this option, but it's hardly a 2-digit standard of road.)
A876 and A977 (and probably A922) should have a single number, probably A977 although it does break the association between M876 and A876. Maybe M977 east of M9?
B9176 (formerly A836) is still part of the main route north to Lairg and Tongue. It was downgraded because of its gradients and old bridges, but with so much less traffic than when it was a shortcut for A9 traffic, it's really the most suitable road to be the south end of A836.
Not quite in the same category, but A698 being the dominant partner in its multiplex with A697 is a real oddity. Why doesn't the primary route have the continuous number?
Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Like this?Big L wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 20:13 A40/A449 from Ross to Newport. Granted, now the bridge is free, it seems a little bit quieter than it used to be, but what was for years the main route from the midlands to south wales flipflops from one to the other and back again.
File under “signing multiplexes better”.
I might be a little bit biased, but I think the A48 has to go to Gloucester!Summers-lad wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 21:42A rerouted A48 would make sense for the A449 south of Raglan, especially as the northern part of A449 is a less strategic route.
Certainly, I don't see how sending it up to Raglan would improve anything, because you'd still have two numbers between Ross and Newport. Over the years several Sabristi have made the suggestion that a better solution for the route would be to divert the A49 along the current A4137 to Goodrich, have a shorter multiplex with the A40 to Raglan, and then use the A49 number from there to Newport.
Another route with multiple numbers is the A40-A465 from Raglan to Swansea. I think this should all be A40, with the A48 west of the M4 also taking that number. The old A40 via Brecon could become A471.
The A465 number would then be free to head down the A4042 to Newport, along a more natural continuation of its Hereford-Abergavenny route. North of Hereford it should be swapped with the A4103, and go to Worcester.
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Except that it hasn't always gone that way - originally from Newport it headed NE to Worcester, more or less the route that A449 now takes (with the assistance of A40). Sending it up to Raglan would partly restore it to it's former alignment (allowing for improvements), though I think I agree that the Ross to Worcester stretch can remain as-is, as it's not of great quality and has been by-passed by M50/M5. What's now A48 from Newport to Gloucester was originally A437, a number that is now in exile in west London.Owain wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 23:20I might be a little bit biased, but I think the A48 has to go to Gloucester!Summers-lad wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 21:42A rerouted A48 would make sense for the A449 south of Raglan, especially as the northern part of A449 is a less strategic route.
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From the SABRE Wiki: A48 :
The A48 is one of the main roads in South Wales, connecting the A40 with itself and running via the southern cities. Most of the road has now been bypassed by the M4 but parts retain their former importance.
The A48 is a fairly quiet road, except at peak periods when Gloucester commuters have to queue from as far back as Minsterworth in the mornings, and form a long stream of traffic heading out towards the Forest of Dean in the evenings. Historically, it could get
Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
The current A48 through Chepstow along the Severn used to be A437 with the A48 initially heading up the same corridor as the current A449 and a bit of A40 to Worcester, as some others have said, though this was quite quickly renumbered as A449 through Usk to Raglan then Ross to Worcester with Raglan to Ross becoming the A40.Summers-lad wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 21:42A rerouted A48 would make sense for the A449 south of Raglan, especially as the northern part of A449 is a less strategic route.Big L wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 20:13 A40/A449 from Ross to Newport. Granted, now the bridge is free, it seems a little bit quieter than it used to be, but what was for years the main route from the midlands to south wales flipflops from one to the other and back again.
File under “signing multiplexes better”.
Ending the A48 on the A40 at Raglan as opposed to at Gloucester would make sense regarding the A449 multiplex, which is a bit silly but seems to have been a decision made when the A48 was renumbered, and it would mean the A449 could then end in Ross which would look more logical, and the route through Chepstow would look less important with a 3 digit number. Though it would perhaps mean more South Wales traffic would go up to Ross and Monmouth (which can get busy) and then would need to use the A40 through the Forest of Dean to Gloucester instead of a relatively clear A48 after going through Chepstow.
It doesn't really need to be a multiplex but the fact it is doesn't really disturb anything.
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:08Except that it hasn't always gone that way - originally from Newport it headed NE to Worcester, more or less the route that A449 now takes (with the assistance of A40). Sending it up to Raglan would partly restore it to it's former alignment (allowing for improvements), though I think I agree that the Ross to Worcester stretch can remain as-is, as it's not of great quality and has been by-passed by M50/M5. What's now A48 from Newport to Gloucester was originally A437, a number that is now in exile in west London.
When first I picked up a 1922 road atlas that I discovered in the Lancaster University library many years ago, and found out that the A48 had originally gone to Worcester rather than Gloucester, I was shocked! The whole of the Gloucester-Newport route would surely have been more important than the original Worcester-Newport route in the age before the M4, and I'd imagine that it would've been busier too.ForestChav wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 13:53The current A48 through Chepstow along the Severn used to be A437 with the A48 initially heading up the same corridor as the current A449 and a bit of A40 to Worcester, as some others have said, though this was quite quickly renumbered as A449 through Usk to Raglan then Ross to Worcester with Raglan to Ross becoming the A40.
Ending the A48 on the A40 at Raglan as opposed to at Gloucester would make sense regarding the A449 multiplex, which is a bit silly but seems to have been a decision made when the A48 was renumbered, and it would mean the A449 could then end in Ross which would look more logical, and the route through Chepstow would look less important with a 3 digit number. Though it would perhaps mean more South Wales traffic would go up to Ross and Monmouth (which can get busy) and then would need to use the A40 through the Forest of Dean to Gloucester instead of a relatively clear A48 after going through Chepstow.
It doesn't really need to be a multiplex but the fact it is doesn't really disturb anything.
Aside from my admission of a personal bias, I don't see any merit in moving it. In its present form, the A48's Gloucester-Chepstow section is significantly better than the A40's Gloucester-Ross route which, once you get beyond Huntley, becomes quite tight and twisty. It wouldn't surprise me if it is significantly busier too. Obviously the A48's Chepstow-Newport section will no longer be anything like as busy as it once was, but it is still a good road, featuring antique delights such as this and this!
Considering that the aim of the thread is to question the concept of 'one route' having 'two numbers', I'd challenge the notion that the A40 has to be continuous from Gloucester to Carmarthen, because it's a very important-sounding number, but one that doesn't form one coherent route between those two points.
The dual-carriageway from Ross to Newport is obviously a major road, and I wonder if it might actually make sense to remove both the A40 and A449 numbers from that stretch. Instead, it could become A440* from the end of the M50 to the M4. As I suggested above, the A40 number could be swapped onto the coherent dualled route from Raglan to Swansea (and the A48 west of the M4) as well. Doing that would give resolve the fact that there are two important arteries in the area - A40-A465 as well as A40/A449 - which currently change number part way through.
*Bryn suggested A440 for the A417-A419 between Gloucester and Swindon, but that could easily become A434, as the original road with that number ran through Tetbury.
From the SABRE Wiki: A48 :
The A48 is one of the main roads in South Wales, connecting the A40 with itself and running via the southern cities. Most of the road has now been bypassed by the M4 but parts retain their former importance.
The A48 is a fairly quiet road, except at peak periods when Gloucester commuters have to queue from as far back as Minsterworth in the mornings, and form a long stream of traffic heading out towards the Forest of Dean in the evenings. Historically, it could get
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
It’s fairly ridiculous that the A34 has such a huge gap in the middle. A34 from Winchester to the M1. Something appropriate to the local area for the other bits way up north…
Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
You could argue that the A8>M8>(or A77>M77>)M74>A74(M)>M6>A14 is a continuous route (depending on how you view the M77/M8/M74 bit in Glasgow).
My personal view is that this should be the A42 as it deserves a two-digit number. Yes I know the A42 exists but again in my view that should be the M42.
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
A42 is out.of zone and should be A453 if remaining non-motorway or M42 if upgraded.M64 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 18:06You could argue that the A8>M8>(or A77>M77>)M74>A74(M)>M6>A14 is a continuous route (depending on how you view the M77/M8/M74 bit in Glasgow).
My personal view is that this should be the A42 as it deserves a two-digit number. Yes I know the A42 exists but again in my view that should be the M42.
A417/A419 is if course a nonsense but settling upon one or the other number (preferably A419) would do fine.
A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Maybe make the A42 a circular route around the three if that’s a good enough reason to start renumbering roads!Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 21:54 …A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
Looking at traffic counts at a randomly chosen approx mid-point on each route: A4103 approx 6k, A42 approx 50k.
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
That was probably the cheapest at the time. Expenses incurred a few years diwn the line don't count - they are somebody else's problem.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 20:05 A434 could easily have been used for the former A34 between Chipping Norton and Solihull but instead they went for the lazy, and wrong, A3400.
Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Now that's a very interesting idea! You could even continue it along the A465 to Abergavenny and Swansea. There is good cause for a two-digit number along the Heads of the Valleys road.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 21:54 A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
That's a pretty good call. It's always struck me as odd that A465 begins (or ends) in, with all due respect to Bromyard, the middle of bleedin' nowhere when it's such an important road through south Wales, but if it was reduced to just the link between Bromyard and Hereford then it wouldn't matter so much.Owain wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 19:16Now that's a very interesting idea! You could even continue it along the A465 to Abergavenny and Swansea. There is good cause for a two-digit number along the Heads of the Valleys road.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 21:54 A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
And it's equally odd that the A4103 has run between Hereford and Worcester from the beginning, and isn't the result of some post-M50 downgrading.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 19:39That's a pretty good call. It's always struck me as odd that A465 begins (or ends) in, with all due respect to Bromyard, the middle of bleedin' nowhere when it's such an important road through south Wales, but if it was reduced to just the link between Bromyard and Hereford then it wouldn't matter so much.Owain wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 19:16Now that's a very interesting idea! You could even continue it along the A465 to Abergavenny and Swansea. There is good cause for a two-digit number along the Heads of the Valleys road.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 21:54 A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Southwell, St Albans and St Davids are looking at this logic intently...Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 21:54
A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Originally it was the B4207 but had became the A4103 by 1924. I can only assume that it had initially been concluded that the main route from Worcester to Hereford was to be via the A44 to Bromyard and then the A465? Perhaps the A465 should have been diverted to Worcester instead of Bromyard instead?
Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
... almost from the beginning then. The fact it was a B-road is - if anything - even worse!SouthWest Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 21:37Originally it was the B4207 but had became the A4103 by 1924. I can only assume that it had initially been concluded that the main route from Worcester to Hereford was to be via the A44 to Bromyard and then the A465? Perhaps the A465 should have been diverted to Worcester instead of Bromyard instead?
I've always wondered why the A465 didn't go to Worcester. It seems like a far more obvious destination than Bromyard.
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
Southwell isn't a city.ForestChav wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 21:35Southwell, St Albans and St Davids are looking at this logic intently...Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 21:54 A42 might be better used for Worcester to Hereford, replacing A4103, a desperately poor number for a route connecting two cathedral cities (two of the Three Choirs cities in the grand scheme of things).
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Re: One route, Multiple numbers…..
My travelled roads can be found here.