One route, Multiple numbers…..

[NICK 647063]

Was just thinking while driving over the Woodhead Pass the other day, how many clear traffic routes do we have with multiple numbers….

For example Manchester to Sheffield is the M67, A57, A628 and A616, it’s considered one clear route as only those roads are trunk but has multiple numbers, clearly should be 1 number.

Other obvious ones are the A417/A419 again a major trunk route, with no comparison with the A417 or A419 beyond it, needs 1 number.

The A19/A168 again another trunk route and the A19 and A168 beyond that route are completely different roads to me, renumber all as A19, renumber A19 to York/Selby and Doncaster the A168, give the LAR alongside the A1(M) a new number.

Then others like the A643, A58, A58(M), A64(M) and A64 around the Leeds IRR, it’s one clear route straight up the A64, personally all the roads listed in this one would be the A64 and A64(M), with the A58 from the IRR towards Wetherby reclassified as a B Road.

What others do we have?

[Bryn666]

This is a drum I keep banging that the road numbering system is a century old and no longer reflects current traffic patterns. In 1922 Woodhead was not the main road across the Pennines, it was only when the M67 started to become an idea that it got traction over the Snake Pass.

It wouldn't be too difficult to renumber the Woodhead and Stocksbridge routes as A57. Given the Snake keeps getting landslips making that a B road and restricting it to, say, 18 tonnes would make a lot of sense.

The A417/419 should have been the A440 long ago.

The A19 should indeed start at Dishforth with the existing A19 south of Thirsk being renumbered - there's no need for the A168 to exist so swapping numbers would work but I'd perhaps say this is a lot of effort, there's nothing to stop there just being a spur of the A19 down to Dishforth - you could be sneaky and just sign it as (A1(M)) and (A19) if need be.

Again there's nothing to stop the A58 multiplexing with the A64 in Leeds to save a lot of renumbering but I do agree that the IRR would be better as one number however you did it.

[Vierwielen]

We should remember that in the United Kingdom, road numbers are for the benfit of the road engineers (and highways authorities), not for the benefit of the motorist. The road numbers identify specific pieces of tarmac. If this were not the case, the the M60 and M62 would be signposted as a multiplexed route.

The needs of motorists are different ot the needs of the highways authorities. One rout that springs to mind is the route from Inverness to Dover. It uses the A9, M90, M9, M8, A720, A1, A1(M), M25, A282, M20 - 10 different road numbers, some of which are split (eg the A1 and the A1(M), also the A282 and the M25. This route can also be identified as the E15 (which continues through France and Spain, passes within 10 km of Gibraltar and terminates at Algeciras. Maybe we should mark the European routes and alongside them mark out regional routws (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland woud of course each be a single region, while England would be 9 regions). Sunc routes would be prfixed "SC", "NI", "CY", "NE", "NW", "YK", "EM", "WM", "EE", LN", "SE" and "SW". (No prizes for guessing the meanings of these prefixes). Where possible the route number would continue unchanged across rgional boundaries (for example the current M3-A303-A30-M5-A30 might become "SE 21 changing to "SW 21" as it passes from Hampshire into Wiltshire, but this would not prevent a route "SC21" appearing in Scotland or "CY21" in Wales.

[jabbaboy]

The A19/A168 again another trunk route and the A19 and A168 beyond that route are completely different roads to me, renumber all as A19, renumber A19 to York/Selby and Doncaster the A168, give the LAR alongside the A1(M) a new number.

If we're going on a mass renumbering, I'd argue that the A19/A168 should be the A1 and the A1(M) should be the M1 instead.

Others:
A189/A1068 - A189
A66/A1053 - A66
A59/A661/A658 - A59
Current A59 through Knaresborough - A6055 or B6165
A67/A688/A690(A1-Sunderland) - A67
Current A67 - A688 or A135 depending on location

[SteelCamel]

We should remember that in the United Kingdom, road numbers are for the benfit of the road engineers (and highways authorities), not for the benefit of the motorist. The road numbers identify specific pieces of tarmac. If this were not the case, the the M60 and M62 would be signposted as a multiplexed route.

I don't think that's entirely true. There are certainly road numbers that have been created for the convenience of motorists - indeed the M60 is an example. All of the M60 already had a Mxx number before the M60 was created (even the new-build part was provisionally M66). It didn't benefit the highway authority to renumber it all - rather the opposite, as they had to update paperwork and erect new signs. And it's not really a single route in engineering terms, as the number of TOTSOs shows.

The A90 is similar to Nick's suggestion about Woodhead - the route from Edinburgh to Aberdeen originally had multiple numbers, but they were then all re-numbered to M90/A90. More recently, moving the A90 to the AWPR and renumbering the old A90 as A92 is clearly aimed at motorists - the engineers would have been just as happy to call the AWPR the A92 and leave the A90 alone.

[Steven]

We should remember that in the United Kingdom, road numbers are for the benfit of the road engineers (and highways authorities), not for the benefit of the motorist. The road numbers identify specific pieces of tarmac. If this were not the case, the the M60 and M62 would be signposted as a multiplexed route.

I don't think that's entirely true. There are certainly road numbers that have been created for the convenience of motorists - indeed the M60 is an example. All of the M60 already had a Mxx number before the M60 was created (even the new-build part was provisionally M66). It didn't benefit the highway authority to renumber it all - rather the opposite, as they had to update paperwork and erect new signs. And it's not really a single route in engineering terms, as the number of TOTSOs shows.

It was true in 1922.

It's got progressively less and less true since 1933 and the creation of the modern A303.

[Owain]

The A417/419 should have been the A440 long ago.

Yes!

The A19 should indeed start at Dishforth with the existing A19 south of Thirsk being renumbered - there's no need for the A168 to exist so swapping numbers would work but I'd perhaps say this is a lot of effort, there's nothing to stop there just being a spur of the A19 down to Dishforth - you could be sneaky and just sign it as (A1(M)) and (A19) if need be.

Somebody (SouthWest Philip?) suggested that the A60 could continue north from Doncaster to York. If it did so, there's no reason why it couldn't go all the way to Thirsk.

Again there's nothing to stop the A58 multiplexing with the A64 in Leeds to save a lot of renumbering but I do agree that the IRR would be better as one number however you did it.

I don't see any point in the A58 beyond Leeds. As soon as it leaves the city it becomes quite a poor route, and there are non-bypassed villages with (IIRC) speed humps and 20 limits. If I wanted to drive to Wetherby from Leeds West, I'd use either the M1-A1(M) or A64-A1(M). The A58 could become a B-road as Nick suggests, or perhaps A604.

[Big L]

A40/A449 from Ross to Newport. Granted, now the bridge is free, it seems a little bit quieter than it used to be, but what was for years the main route from the midlands to south wales flipflops from one to the other and back again.

File under “signing multiplexes better”.

[vlad]

The needs of motorists are different ot the needs of the highways authorities. One rout that springs to mind is the route from Inverness to Dover....

I'd definitely say that some of the routes mentioned in this thread (for example Manchester-Sheffield and Gloucester-Swindon) are single routes with more than one number - but I wouldn't say that your example is a single coherent route. Yes it's a major road up the east coast - but you can also argue that it avoids places like Leeds and Aberdeen so misses out where some people want to go. You could also argue that Glasgow to Dover via the M6 and M1 is a more important single route - or you could argue that it isn't.

[Micro The Maniac]

The A417/419 should have been the A440 long ago.

What's wrong with A346 which terminates at the other side of M4/J15, becoming the A419

Or better (IMHO), renumber the A338, A346, A419, A417 all as A35 - the existing A35 across the New Forest becomes the A33 for no obvious reason at Redbridge, so can all be A33 from Southampton to the County Gates Gyratory...

The A19 should indeed start at Dishforth with the existing A19 south of Thirsk being renumbered - there's no need for the A168 to exist so swapping numbers would work

Alternatively, you have the A170 which dog-legs south past Skeldale Vets, to meet the York Road incarnation of the A19... maybe just extend the A170 over the single-carriageway A19 to Donny, leaving the A168 for the A1 LAR - with the A61 taking over the A168 Northallerton road?

But that all seems a lot of faff!

[Micro The Maniac]

There are plenty other contenders for rationalisation... eg

• The A31 west of Ower should be the A27, with the existing A27 west of Cosham renumbered (as A259? and maybe A3057 west of Romsey?)
• There is no logical reason why the A326 isn't A36
• The A33 and the A35 meet head-on at Redbridge... why?
• The A31 would like the A3090 back, please

[Bryn666]

A40/A449 from Ross to Newport. Granted, now the bridge is free, it seems a little bit quieter than it used to be, but what was for years the main route from the midlands to south wales flipflops from one to the other and back again.

File under “signing multiplexes better”.

I argued years ago the A40 should've been rerouted along the Heads of the Valleys and take over the A48 from Pont Abraham. The A449 south of Raglan should be A455, lengthy multiplex eliminated.

In a parallel universe the M50 made it to Newport. You could argue the Raglan to Coldra D2 is the same spec as the shoulderless bits of the M90 and easily worthy of blue signs though...

[skiddaw05]

There's the out of zone bit of the A505 between Leighton Buzzard and Dunstable, why isn't this, and the length of A4146 it randomly starts on, just a continuation of the A418?

[rileyrob]

There is lots of this in Scotland, perhaps originally because they were trying to use numbers up to justify three zones. Many more have been created over the last century though.

A few examples:
The A84 is by far the busier route south/east at Lochearnhead, so should be swapped with the A85 here.
The A985 and A921 meet end on at Rosyth, and if there were merged, why not extend all the way to St Andrews over the A915 (possibly using the A955)
With the advent of the NC500, it could be argued that the route from Ullapool to John O Groats should have a single number, instead of A835/A837/A894/A838/A836.
The Strathcarron route to Skye is now much busier than it was, so extend the A890 to meet the A835 and renumber one of the sections of A832.
The A828 / A816 form a coherent coastal route in Argyll, so should have a single number, even if it means cutting back the A85 from Oban or having a useless multiplex
A lot of A86 traffic continues onto the A95 through Speyside.
The B roads to the east of Loch Ness also make little sense. Tourists tend to use the B862/B852/B862, while a lot more traffic now uses B851/B862 since the route has been improved for windfarm traffic. The B862 from Dores to Errogie seems very quiet in comparison.

[wallmeerkat]

Belfast to Derry|Londonderry is M2-M22-A6, when it's one continuous road.

[wrinkly]

Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned anything with 74 in it ...

[wallmeerkat]

Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned anything with 74 in it ...

I can think of 76 and 78

B7076 and B7078

[jnty]

Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned anything with 74 in it ...

Good point - the continuous motorway running from M8 in Glasgow to the M1 at Catthorpe should be named the A74(M) throughout...

[wallmeerkat]

Nobody in this thread has yet mentioned anything with 74 in it ...

Good point - the continuous motorway running from M8 in Glasgow to the M1 at Catthorpe should be named the A74(M) throughout...

European Route A74(M) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E5

[Summers-lad]

A40/A449 from Ross to Newport. Granted, now the bridge is free, it seems a little bit quieter than it used to be, but what was for years the main route from the midlands to south wales flipflops from one to the other and back again.

File under “signing multiplexes better”.

A rerouted A48 would make sense for the A449 south of Raglan, especially as the northern part of A449 is a less strategic route.