East Leeds Orbital Route

[Bryn666]

I find the most defensive types in the industry are the ones who are not good. I mean, basic mistakes in sign design which just show a lack of caring for the job... if a sign looks wrong it usually is.

Yes, despite my joke above, I do feel for him to some extent - if he's defensive he probably knows he isn't getting it right, and he's almost certainly been put in a position where he's doing the job without having had the right training or experience. That's no good. But it doesn't change the fact that the signage changes around this project have been appalling!

It's his managers who need a kicking really, they are supposed to check and approve designs and offer the correct guidance where a design falls short of what's needed. The fact this is not being done and, I dare say, a junior technician is being asked to do "it's just signs innit" is the problem here.

[quantinghome]

I find the most defensive types in the industry are the ones who are not good. I mean, basic mistakes in sign design which just show a lack of caring for the job... if a sign looks wrong it usually is.

Yes, despite my joke above, I do feel for him to some extent - if he's defensive he probably knows he isn't getting it right, and he's almost certainly been put in a position where he's doing the job without having had the right training or experience. That's no good. But it doesn't change the fact that the signage changes around this project have been appalling!

It's his managers who need a kicking really, they are supposed to check and approve designs and offer the correct guidance where a design falls short of what's needed. The fact this is not being done and, I dare say, a junior technician is being asked to do "it's just signs innit" is the problem here.

Sadly this outcome is all too predictable given the state of local government finances. Leeds has lost a cumulative £2.5 billion in central government funding since 2010. The highways department has let go experienced higher salaried staff and hired younger staff on degree apprenticeships. The remaining experienced managers will be stretched over more schemes. If blame is to be apportioned, it's to the national politicians who have cynically dumped cost costing measures on local councils for over a decade.

[Chris56000]

I can make sign layouts just as good in my "sPlan 8" software – admittedly it would need to be exported to a tool that can provide the cutting machinery numerical instructions, but if other members can get it right in MS Paint, Inkscape or Illustrator, how come these people who have access to proper sign design/manufacturing software can't?!

They only have to look at TSM Chapter 7 (which doesn't cost a penny to download!) to see how to do it right!

Not all local authorities are bad by any means, Walsall has very few that qualify as "Botched", and Birmingham isn't bad either – the main problem with Birmingham is that new signage seems to have an irresistible attraction for careless/reckless chavs that wreck them and then they don't get replaced!

Chris Williams

[NICK 647063]

After just talking about this on here I noticed a few of the new signs are now getting replaced with the correct ones on the old A6120……

[Bryn666]

Yes, despite my joke above, I do feel for him to some extent - if he's defensive he probably knows he isn't getting it right, and he's almost certainly been put in a position where he's doing the job without having had the right training or experience. That's no good. But it doesn't change the fact that the signage changes around this project have been appalling!

It's his managers who need a kicking really, they are supposed to check and approve designs and offer the correct guidance where a design falls short of what's needed. The fact this is not being done and, I dare say, a junior technician is being asked to do "it's just signs innit" is the problem here.

Sadly this outcome is all too predictable given the state of local government finances. Leeds has lost a cumulative £2.5 billion in central government funding since 2010. The highways department has let go experienced higher salaried staff and hired younger staff on degree apprenticeships. The remaining experienced managers will be stretched over more schemes. If blame is to be apportioned, it's to the national politicians who have cynically dumped cost costing measures on local councils for over a decade.

The skills gap was widening even before this shambolic government was a glint in the electorate's eye. Routinely bad sign design was happening as early as the late 1980s.

[NICK 647063]

Update from LCC today, very very basic replies confirming what we already know but at least acknowledging the mistakes.

They say they do "follow various guidance, advice and regulations" when it comes to designing signs ha ha ha! "The signs for ELOR were designed by Atkins" and "Leeds City Council produced the signs for the B6902" explains why the signs for the B6902 are so much worse and riddled with mistakes. They said "yes" they do have a quality control process for ensuring that new signage correctly follows guidance and/or laws when produced in house or contracted out to 3rd parties, again ha ha ha!

They said "yes, we agree that there are anomalies." with the signs and that "All anomalies will be corrected." When asked about time frames they said "The majority of signs will be corrected within 4-6 weeks with the exception of those affected by the proposed downgrade works which will be replaced as part of that process" which confuses me as surely the downgrade works is what they have got so terribly wrong. Then finished by saying that "All signing along ELOR, the B6902 and the surrounding network will be reviewed" Hopefully by someone competent!

I honestly can’t believe what’s going on now, so a few of the signs were changed yesterday, one at the Seacroft roundabout that pointed towards York had all the motorway numbers in one large blue patch, this has now been replaced with the separate patches which is correct but just to avoid having a perfectly correct sign the new one has York (A64) when it was correct as York A64 previously!

[Barkstar]

I find the most defensive types in the industry are the ones who are not good. I mean, basic mistakes in sign design which just show a lack of caring for the job... if a sign looks wrong it usually is.

Yes, despite my joke above, I do feel for him to some extent - if he's defensive he probably knows he isn't getting it right, and he's almost certainly been put in a position where he's doing the job without having had the right training or experience. That's no good. But it doesn't change the fact that the signage changes around this project have been appalling!

It's his managers who need a kicking really, they are supposed to check and approve designs and offer the correct guidance where a design falls short of what's needed. The fact this is not being done and, I dare say, a junior technician is being asked to do "it's just signs innit" is the problem here.

Well we've all got sat nag now, so so what about the signs being wrong grandad......

[Owain]

*Mock-up of correct sign*

... took me all of 5 mins.

Ever fancied moving?

[NICK 647063]

Yes, despite my joke above, I do feel for him to some extent - if he's defensive he probably knows he isn't getting it right, and he's almost certainly been put in a position where he's doing the job without having had the right training or experience. That's no good. But it doesn't change the fact that the signage changes around this project have been appalling!

It's his managers who need a kicking really, they are supposed to check and approve designs and offer the correct guidance where a design falls short of what's needed. The fact this is not being done and, I dare say, a junior technician is being asked to do "it's just signs innit" is the problem here.

Well we've all got sat nag now, so so what about the signs being wrong grandad......

No need to have that attitude! Personally I’m not an old person but don’t use a sat nav, over the years I’ve learnt almost every road but sometime I just need to have a look at google maps if it’s an unfamiliar area, I plan my route then just drive, signs are handy, I just find a box telling you where to go annoying plus people seem to follow them regardless of road signs and do anything it says…..

So are you saying signs aren’t required? Bit of a daft comment really, signs will always be needed and if it’s someone’s job to design them then surely getting them correct is part of that job!

[Barkstar]

It's his managers who need a kicking really, they are supposed to check and approve designs and offer the correct guidance where a design falls short of what's needed. The fact this is not being done and, I dare say, a junior technician is being asked to do "it's just signs innit" is the problem here.

Well we've all got sat nag now, so so what about the signs being wrong grandad......

No need to have that attitude! Personally I’m not an old person but don’t use a sat nav, over the years I’ve learnt almost every road but sometime I just need to have a look at google maps if it’s an unfamiliar area, I plan my route then just drive, signs are handy, I just find a box telling you where to go annoying plus people seem to follow them regardless of road signs and do anything it says…..

So are you saying signs aren’t required? Bit of a daft comment really, signs will always be needed and if it’s someone’s job to design them then surely getting them correct is part of that job!

Neither do I use a sat nav. I was being flippant and imagining the response of the sign's designer on being told his were wrong. As a sexagenarian I have been looked on with pity because I prefer a map and signs that are actually helpful.

[Owain]

Neither do I use a sat nav. I was being flippant and imagining the response of the sign's designer on being told his were wrong. As a sexagenarian I have been looked on with pity because I prefer a map and signs that are actually helpful.

I remember my ex phoning me once to ask how to get back home. She had taken her car for a service in Wincanton, and the road that her sat nav wanted to use to get back to Frome was closed. She had no idea how to override it, so I told her to set it for Warminster and drive there, then to set it for Frome. Eventually she got home.

[ellandback]

Sorry if this has been noted already but I was browsing the 2024 AZ road atlas today (as you do) and couldn't help notice it had the new stretch of A6120 down as A4440, which was ... unexpected.

Got the B6902 right though.

Never thought I would have cause to use the new road without making a special trip but sure enough coming back from the coast on Tuesday night the slip roads onto the A1(M) southbound from the A64 westbound were closed, so off to the new A6120 I went.

[Chris Bertram]

Sorry if this has been noted already but I was browsing the 2024 AZ road atlas today (as you do) and couldn't help notice it had the new stretch of A6120 down as A4440, which was ... unexpected.

Got the B6902 right though.

Never thought I would have cause to use the new road without making a special trip but sure enough coming back from the coast on Tuesday night the slip roads onto the A1(M) southbound from the A64 westbound were closed, so off to the new A6120 I went.

Did you check the Worcester ring road to see whether that had been renumbered A6120?

[ellandback]

Ha ha no, but I did have a vague sense it was a number that was already in use, without being sure precisely where (though obviously nowhere near Leeds), so thanks for clearing that up!

[NICK 647063]

Sorry if this has been noted already but I was browsing the 2024 AZ road atlas today (as you do) and couldn't help notice it had the new stretch of A6120 down as A4440, which was ... unexpected.

Got the B6902 right though.

Never thought I would have cause to use the new road without making a special trip but sure enough coming back from the coast on Tuesday night the slip roads onto the A1(M) southbound from the A64 westbound were closed, so off to the new A6120 I went.

I had a quick scan of the 2024 AZ the other week but for some reason didn’t even notice that, I was just pleased that the downgrading of the A6120 to B6902 had finally kicked them into downgrading the A63 to B6159….. I was half expecting them to show the A63 ending on the B6902 at Colton but hey it was a pleasant surprise after well over a decade!

Well we’ve had a couple of accidents this week at the ELOR A64 roundabout when the signals went out again, seems common but on the plus side I do like the wildflowers and poppies on the throughabout.

[danstone24]

Update from LCC today, very very basic replies confirming what we already know but at least acknowledging the mistakes.

They say they do "follow various guidance, advice and regulations" when it comes to designing signs ha ha ha! "The signs for ELOR were designed by Atkins" and "Leeds City Council produced the signs for the B6902" explains why the signs for the B6902 are so much worse and riddled with mistakes. They said "yes" they do have a quality control process for ensuring that new signage correctly follows guidance and/or laws when produced in house or contracted out to 3rd parties, again ha ha ha!

They said "yes, we agree that there are anomalies." with the signs and that "All anomalies will be corrected." When asked about time frames they said "The majority of signs will be corrected within 4-6 weeks with the exception of those affected by the proposed downgrade works which will be replaced as part of that process" which confuses me as surely the downgrade works is what they have got so terribly wrong. Then finished by saying that "All signing along ELOR, the B6902 and the surrounding network will be reviewed" Hopefully by someone competent!

I honestly can’t believe what’s going on now, so a few of the signs were changed yesterday, one at the Seacroft roundabout that pointed towards York had all the motorway numbers in one large blue patch, this has now been replaced with the separate patches which is correct but just to avoid having a perfectly correct sign the new one has York (A64) when it was correct as York A64 previously!

Crazy innit! They replaced a few signs which are much better and replaced some with other mistakes as you pointed out, and now its all stopped and there has been nothing for months. I think they are spending all their time doing signage for the Armley Gyratory and City Square/ Loop Road works at the moment. But even that, they can't get right. Check out this new sign for the Royal Armouries. Didn't know they had Sheep now! hahah

https://imgur.com/ERfS61H

You really can't make it up!!!