B2143 East Grinstead

[Pgd]

As I mentioned in the Botched Roadsigns thread:

I was looking at Sabre Maps to see exactly when the A264 and B2110 swapped around east of East Grinstead, and got a surprise: a re-incarnation of the B2143! This was originally used near Chichester (c.f. Sabre Wiki), but sometime in the 1940s (see e.g. 1944 Ten Mile, 1948 One Inch on Sabre Maps) it pops up in East Grinstead. Specifically, to the route (west to east) Brooklands Road, Station Approach, Moat Road, Cranston Road, Blackwell Road. At the time, I think it would have met the B2110 at both ends:- that road would have run (west to east) Turner's Hill Road, West Hill, West Street, High Street (multiplex with A22), Blackwell Hollow, Holtye Road.

These days, the historic high street area is entirely unclassified, and the B2110 runs Turner's Hill Road, Brooklands Way, Beeching Way gyratory/Beeching Way ...multiplexing with the A22 all the way to Forest Row. (Although note that Blackwell Hollow is also still classified B2110, so this is now a sort of spur off the A22/B2110 multiplex.) The Moat Road--Cranston Road--Blackwell Road route is now classified A264.

As an East Grinstead resident, I'd like to do a bit more digging (if I ever find the time), because I suspect that the B2143 routing may have been created as a sort of west-to-east inner-relief road. Certainly Moat Road--Cranston Road--Blackwell Road did not originally form a through-route (indeed Blackwell Road was only built in the (?)1910s), and it'd be interesting to know whether Brooklands Way was also upgraded, in the 1940s, in order to take the B2143 classification.

Finally: having seen B2143 on a map (to be entirely fair, on two entirely different maps) I did a quick Google (of "B2143 East Grinstead") just to see what might turn up. And interestingly, I found some sort of road itinerary listing, similar to the 1922 MoT and 2000s DfT Card Index lists, buried within the RAC online archives. I can download some (incomplete) PDF scans directly from Google, but I can't see how to access them from within the RAC site itself. Does anyone here know anything about these lists? They must date from at least the 1940s because the A264 through Crawley has already swallowed up the A278. The entry for B2143 reads: "East Grinstead (Blackwell Road, Cranston Road, part., Moat Road, Turner's Hill Road, part., Railway Approach)" i.e. going east to west, and somehow missing out Brooklands Way (was it possibly at that time also named Turner's Hill Road and/or Railway Approach? Or was this simply an omission?).

[Steven]

That's an absolutely brilliant find!

Definitely more research required there...

[rileyrob]

I think the page you found is part of this archive folder:
https://collections.royalautomobileclub ... rac-2.4.26 which rather frustratingly isn't dated. However, I found it by searching all records per decade, and it came up in the 1950s.

It could be a very useful mine of information, or it might not tell us anything we don't already know!

[Steven]

I think the page you found is part of this archive folder:
https://collections.royalautomobileclub ... rac-2.4.26 which rather frustratingly isn't dated. However, I found it by searching all records per decade, and it came up in the 1950s.

It could be a very useful mine of information, or it might not tell us anything we don't already know!

23 Sep 1958 is given as the file date.

[Pgd]

rileyrob, Steven,

Thanks, yes that looks to be the same archive. Good at least to know it exists as a coherent whole.

[Steven]

rileyrob, Steven,

Thanks, yes that looks to be the same archive. Good at least to know it exists as a coherent whole.

Yeah, I'll see what I can do about doing something useful with it, but we do need to be aware of copyright on it, which is still in place for another five years.

[rileyrob]

I've had a quick look through the Scottish part of the lists, and there's nothing particularly exciting. I'd like to think we can use it as evidence of when certain routes were added before / after or indeed declassified. However, the A969 in Lerwick isn't listed, and we have no reason to believe it ever ceased to be. I suspect it isn't alone in this.

On the flip side, A991 Dundee (St Andrews Street - Trades Lane) is something I don't believe we have ever been aware of before, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't feature on OS maps, but it does explain the subsequent use of this number in Dundee... Although it doesn't explain why it was used in the first place!

===

I'm happy to share the load and go through Zones 7-9. I hope I can get it to OCR, failing that transcribe it into Excel.

I know it is still copyright data, but does the copyright apply to using excerpts en-mass? I could add an RAC / 1958 tag into this template: Template:MOT-DfT_Lists . This would allow us to include all of the data from the files, each appropriately referenced (via a Wiki page about the data set). However, it would ultimately mean we had used all of the data, albeit in tiny fragments.

[Steven]

I've had a quick look through the Scottish part of the lists, and there's nothing particularly exciting. I'd like to think we can use it as evidence of when certain routes were added before / after or indeed declassified. However, the A969 in Lerwick isn't listed, and we have no reason to believe it ever ceased to be. I suspect it isn't alone in this.

On the flip side, A991 Dundee (St Andrews Street - Trades Lane) is something I don't believe we have ever been aware of before, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't feature on OS maps, but it does explain the subsequent use of this number in Dundee... Although it doesn't explain why it was used in the first place!

Yes, I'm not expecting tons of information to come out of it - for example one that I've spotted is the B5317 in Manchester which we'd not got before even though it's there clear as anything on Seventh Series sheets on SABRE Maps, but I suspect we simply hadn't found the number at all so couldn't reference it on the Wiki beyond "unknown B road in Manchester"! It's really that sort of thing I'm hoping for - small city centre streets mostly.

I'm happy to share the load and go through Zones 7-9. I hope I can get it to OCR, failing that transcribe it into Excel.

I know it is still copyright data, but does the copyright apply to using excerpts en-mass? I could add an RAC / 1958 tag into this template: Template:MOT-DfT_Lists . This would allow us to include all of the data from the files, each appropriately referenced (via a Wiki page about the data set). However, it would ultimately mean we had used all of the data, albeit in tiny fragments.

Ewwww. We can definitely pull extracts out of it, like the above examples, up to 5% of the work given the purpose is for education - which given that we already know the vast majority of it we should be safely under. But to copy it almost in its entirety would be verboten. I can't find any specific declaration of copyright on the website, so therefore the assumption is 70 years given there is no named author. However, there is an email address for the heritage department on there, and so we could ask nicely.

[rileyrob]

I can't find any specific declaration of copyright on the website, so therefore the assumption is 70 years given there is no named author. However, there is an email address for the heritage department on there, and so we could ask nicely.

Yes, I think someone from the wider management team should definitely get in touch for a variety of reasons:
Can we use it before the copyright expires - it's hardly unique information
What is the history behind the creation of the document
Were there any other iterations of the document - was it issued annually by any chance, or ever revised?

I'm sure there are several other useful questions we could ask.

[Ross Spur]

(indeed Blackwell Road was only built in the (?)1910s), and it'd be interesting to know whether Brooklands Way was also upgraded, in the 1940s, in order to take the B2143 classification.

The earliest reference to Blackwell Road found in the British Newspaper Archive is in the Sussex Agricultural Express of 5 July 1912 where the Council discussed a proposal to take off the corner at the junction of Blackwell Road and Blackwell Hollow, and to widen the road in front of Blackwell Farm.

On the National Library of Scotland site the 1938 OS Six inch map shows B2143 as continuing along Cranston Road (instead of along Blackwell Road) to end on B2110 at the south end of Blackwell Hollow: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101433867 . The other maps on the site may help.

[Pgd]

Ah, excellent spot! I used those maps as a guide to when Blackwell Road first appeared, but it didn't occur to me that the later editions might have road numbers printed on. I'd love to know the reason why the B classification was first applied to Cranston Rd not Blackwell. A later map from c.1970 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/189259430) *does* show the B road now going via Blackwell Road.

[Pgd]

I've now created a Wiki page: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... Grinstead)
It's my first one, so be gentle!

[Steven]

I've now created a Wiki page: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... Grinstead)
It's my first one, so be gentle!

It's great! I'll add some of the templates to it so that it matches the consistent "look and feel", but it's really good - thank you!