Why does the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

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RichardA35
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by RichardA35 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 08:01
Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 07:05
Steven wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:25
It's not even slightly odd and is completely correct, no matter how many times people claim otherwise.
The M69 starts *south* of the M6, and therefore (should be) in Motorway Zone 4
It extends about 600m south of the M6 out of necessity, simply because motorway regulations start and end where the south-facing sliproads from the interchange meet it. I don't think you could say with a straight face that the M69 motorway continues its journey south of Ansty Interchange - the end of the route is at its junction with the M6, whatever the details of how the sliproads and carriageways interact!

By the same logic you could argue that the M18 should have a 6-zone number because the northbound carriageway runs west of the M1 for 500 metres at Thurcroft Interchange, or that the M61 ought to be in the 5-zone because its northbound side strays west of the M6 at its terminus.
Remembering also that for many years in the 1980's only the M69S-M6W loop existed south of the M6 with stubs where the Coventry Eastern Bypass would be later built and "plugged-in".
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Bryn666
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Bryn666 »

RichardA35 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 09:18
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 08:01
Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 07:05
The M69 starts *south* of the M6, and therefore (should be) in Motorway Zone 4
It extends about 600m south of the M6 out of necessity, simply because motorway regulations start and end where the south-facing sliproads from the interchange meet it. I don't think you could say with a straight face that the M69 motorway continues its journey south of Ansty Interchange - the end of the route is at its junction with the M6, whatever the details of how the sliproads and carriageways interact!

By the same logic you could argue that the M18 should have a 6-zone number because the northbound carriageway runs west of the M1 for 500 metres at Thurcroft Interchange, or that the M61 ought to be in the 5-zone because its northbound side strays west of the M6 at its terminus.
Remembering also that for many years in the 1980's only the M69S-M6W loop existed south of the M6 with stubs where the Coventry Eastern Bypass would be later built and "plugged-in".
Yes, and there is little to zero evidence the Coventry Eastern Bypass was ever going to be anything but an A road.

Zonal purity is a silly hill to die on, when we have numbering abominations like the A6055 existing in two separate locations alongside the A1(M), or the fact several major trunk roads that are a single continuous route have several numbers - e.g. A417/A419.

No one has ever been navigationally hindered by the M69 being numbered M69, but they've had no end of hassle with nonsense like the A74(M)/M74/M6.
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Steven »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 07:05 The M69 starts *south* of the M6, and therefore (should be) in Motorway Zone 4
Terminal junction complexes don't count or else nothing is ever in zone if it meets a zone boundary. That's how grade separation works.

Presumably there's no claim about to arrive that the M50 was incorrectly numbered when it was created as that "started" east of the M5, but that's been fixed since the terminal junction design was changed?
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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:27
RichardA35 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 09:18
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 08:01
It extends about 600m south of the M6 out of necessity, simply because motorway regulations start and end where the south-facing sliproads from the interchange meet it. I don't think you could say with a straight face that the M69 motorway continues its journey south of Ansty Interchange - the end of the route is at its junction with the M6, whatever the details of how the sliproads and carriageways interact!

By the same logic you could argue that the M18 should have a 6-zone number because the northbound carriageway runs west of the M1 for 500 metres at Thurcroft Interchange, or that the M61 ought to be in the 5-zone because its northbound side strays west of the M6 at its terminus.
Remembering also that for many years in the 1980's only the M69S-M6W loop existed south of the M6 with stubs where the Coventry Eastern Bypass would be later built and "plugged-in".
Yes, and there is little to zero evidence the Coventry Eastern Bypass was ever going to be anything but an A road.

Zonal purity is a silly hill to die on, when we have numbering abominations like the A6055 existing in two separate locations alongside the A1(M), or the fact several major trunk roads that are a single continuous route have several numbers - e.g. A417/A419.

No one has ever been navigationally hindered by the M69 being numbered M69, but they've had no end of hassle with nonsense like the A74(M)/M74/M6.
Has anyone been "navigationally hindered" by the A74(M)/M74/M6 - whether navigating by satnav or road atlas, it's an obvious route to follow. Personally, I combine the M74 and A74(M) as they're both motorways, with numeric "74" and seamlessly switch from one to the other - apart from Sabre pedantry, who cares!
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Bryn666 »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:00
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:27
RichardA35 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 09:18 Remembering also that for many years in the 1980's only the M69S-M6W loop existed south of the M6 with stubs where the Coventry Eastern Bypass would be later built and "plugged-in".
Yes, and there is little to zero evidence the Coventry Eastern Bypass was ever going to be anything but an A road.

Zonal purity is a silly hill to die on, when we have numbering abominations like the A6055 existing in two separate locations alongside the A1(M), or the fact several major trunk roads that are a single continuous route have several numbers - e.g. A417/A419.

No one has ever been navigationally hindered by the M69 being numbered M69, but they've had no end of hassle with nonsense like the A74(M)/M74/M6.
Has anyone been "navigationally hindered" by the A74(M)/M74/M6 - whether navigating by satnav or road atlas, it's an obvious route to follow. Personally, I combine the M74 and A74(M) as they're both motorways, with numeric "74" and seamlessly switch from one to the other - apart from Sabre pedantry, who cares!
Giving directions to people it does, for example to take the A419/A417 example, if you get this mixed up and tell someone to look for the A419 to Swindon when leaving the M5, that's J11A missed. Not everyone uses junction numbers, not everyone uses sat navs, and businesses in particular like to be able to tell people landmarks to look for because that's how people typically find their way.

The reliance on robots to tell people where to drive is how we get people wedged under bridges and dangling off cliff edges. For me sat nav reliance should be the first thing we seek to banish.
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:42
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:00
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:27

Yes, and there is little to zero evidence the Coventry Eastern Bypass was ever going to be anything but an A road.

Zonal purity is a silly hill to die on, when we have numbering abominations like the A6055 existing in two separate locations alongside the A1(M), or the fact several major trunk roads that are a single continuous route have several numbers - e.g. A417/A419.

No one has ever been navigationally hindered by the M69 being numbered M69, but they've had no end of hassle with nonsense like the A74(M)/M74/M6.
Has anyone been "navigationally hindered" by the A74(M)/M74/M6 - whether navigating by satnav or road atlas, it's an obvious route to follow. Personally, I combine the M74 and A74(M) as they're both motorways, with numeric "74" and seamlessly switch from one to the other - apart from Sabre pedantry, who cares!
Giving directions to people it does, for example to take the A419/A417 example, if you get this mixed up and tell someone to look for the A419 to Swindon when leaving the M5, that's J11A missed. Not everyone uses junction numbers, not everyone uses sat navs, and businesses in particular like to be able to tell people landmarks to look for because that's how people typically find their way.

The reliance on robots to tell people where to drive is how we get people wedged under bridges and dangling off cliff edges. For me sat nav reliance should be the first thing we seek to banish.
I wasn't suggesting reliance on satnavs - like many on Sabre I've always been comfortable with maps and road atlases - for those who can't/won't cope with maps, like my wife, then turn-by-turn directions are needed using whatever landmarks are appropriate - but changes in road number are often needed depending on the start/end of a particular journey, sometimes between similar road numbers.
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Bryn666 »

Yes, but the A419/A417 example is one of those which is illogical because the main route between the M5 and M4 should really be one number here.

There are of course examples where a number turns off a route, the A57 turning into the A630 leaving Sheffield for example, but these are a different case entirely to having a continuous motorway from Rugby to Glasgow that changes number twice for no reason whatsoever.
Bryn
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by KeithW »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:42 Giving directions to people it does, for example to take the A419/A417 example, if you get this mixed up and tell someone to look for the A419 to Swindon when leaving the M5, that's J11A missed. Not everyone uses junction numbers, not everyone uses sat navs, and businesses in particular like to be able to tell people landmarks to look for because that's how people typically find their way.

The reliance on robots to tell people where to drive is how we get people wedged under bridges and dangling off cliff edges. For me sat nav reliance should be the first thing we seek to banish.
Satnavs are navigation tools just like a map and compass, common sense should always be employed with any of them. I have seen OS maps that show a road that is open to vehicles but I wouldnt use it in a normal car. People wedged trucks under bridges and got stuck on rough roads long before satnavs existed, it is also why they publish special road atlases for HGV's and caravanners.

This bridge was every bit as popular with inattentive truck and bus drivers in the 1960's as it is today, probably more so given that at the time the only alternative route was a level crossing that you had to phone the signalman from to get it opened.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Why doe the M6 turn into the M74 in Scotland?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 13:31 Yes, but the A419/A417 example is one of those which is illogical because the main route between the M5 and M4 should really be one number here.
Swindon to Gloucester was indeed originally all one number (A419), and it's unclear why this was changed. Neither A419 nor A417 seem to be coherent routes in their own right today.
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From the SABRE Wiki: A419 :

You could be forgiven for thinking that the boundary between zone 3 and zone 4 runs along the M4 in Wiltshire, rather than the A4. The reason for this is that both the A419, which started in Hungerford on the A4, and the A429, which started in Chippenham on the A4 have both been cropped so they start on the M4.

The A419 used to follow the line of the B4192 between Hungerford and Swindon

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