A428 Black Cat - Caxton Gibbet improvement

[Bryn666]

It won't get junction numbers but if it did the logical thing is to start J1 at Cambridge then if any westward extensions from the M1 happen it won't run out of potential numbers.

With motorways we have A and B carriageways with numbering starting at the start of the A carriageway. Does this convention not apply to DC roads? Or should it ?

They do and it depends where the datum is for the A carriageway. I would not be surprised if the A428 goes in the illogical direction!

[KeithW]

They do and it depends where the datum is for the A carriageway. I would not be surprised if the A428 goes in the illogical direction!

What is now the A428 was the A45 from Felixstowe to Birmingham. The A45 as far as Cambridge became the A14 as did the A604 on to the M6. The section of A45 to the A1 was renumbered A428 and west of the A1 to Wellingborough became a series of B Roads. I dont recall if the A45 as was ever had junction numbers but I doubt it. As I recall that happened much later when A14 was allocated to the old A45. The A45 doesn't seem to have any from Thrapston to Northampton.

In fact relatively few Dual Carriageway roads ever seem to have had junction numbers, the A1 was only allocated numbers when sections were upgraded to A1(M) and even major routes such as the A19 from Thirsk to Seaton Burn or the A34 from Winchester to Oxford and the M40 do not have them. The A11 is now mostly dualled through East Anglia but also lacks junction numbers. As I recall there are no Junction numbers on the A1 north of Seaton Burn.

Come to that I am pretty sure there are no junction numbers on the A421 from the Black Cat to the M1 at Brogborough or on the A45 Coventry bypass.

If in fact we think junction numbers are a good thing we should probably follow what happens in most US States where the junction number is the mileage from the start of the road and avoid the sort of nonsense we see here such as M1 J23A and M1 J24A

[doebag]

They do and it depends where the datum is for the A carriageway. I would not be surprised if the A428 goes in the illogical direction!

If in fact we think junction numbers are a good thing we should probably follow what happens in most US States where the junction number is the mileage from the start of the road and avoid the sort of nonsense we see here such as M1 J23A and M1 J24A

Even then someone needs to decide where the road starts. If it’s a Zone 4 Road then it starts on the A43 near Croughton.

[Chris5156]

It won't get junction numbers but if it did the logical thing is to start J1 at Cambridge then if any westward extensions from the M1 happen it won't run out of potential numbers.

With motorways we have A and B carriageways with numbering starting at the start of the A carriageway. Does this convention not apply to DC roads? Or should it ?

The convention does apply, but that's all it is - a convention. There are one or two motorways where numbering runs the other way, and A-roads where it does too.

[Chris Bertram]

What is now the A428 was the A45 from Felixstowe to Birmingham. The A45 as far as Cambridge became the A14 as did the A604 on to the M6. The section of A45 to the A1 was renumbered A428 and west of the A1 to Wellingborough became a series of B Roads. I dont recall if the A45 as was ever had junction numbers but I doubt it. As I recall that happened much later when A14 was allocated to the old A45. The A45 doesn't seem to have any from Thrapston to Northampton.

A45 from A1 near St Neots to Higham Ferrers became B645 (as this route starts just west of A6 it is strictly speaking out of zone). This is the road with the right-angle bends in Kimbolton. It was non-primary even when it was still A45 due to its poor standard, the rest of the road was a primary route even in its unimproved state.

Through St Neots, I think the old A45 has become B1048 and then B1428, the latter also including a section of former A428.

[M64]

Reading through the development consent order for this scheme https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/934/article/13 it looks like National Highways have a clause that allows them (so long as they give the required notices) to change the classification of the new trunk road to a special road i.e. motorway status:

(11) Subject to paragraph (12) the undertaker may vary the classification of the roads, or any part of those roads, provided for in paragraphs (1), (2) and (3) and such variation may provide for any trunk road comprised in the authorised development and referred to in paragraph (1) to be classified as a special road.

(14) Any roads classified as a special road in accordance with paragraph (11) are, on and from the date on which they are so classified, to be—

(a)classified as special roads for the purpose of any enactment or instrument which refers to highways classified as special roads; and
(b)provided for the use of traffic of Classes I and II(2) of the classes of traffic set out in Schedule 4 (classes of traffic for purposes of special roads) to the 1980 Act.

The powers if used would create a 2-lane motorway without a hard shoulder (as I assume they are not building a hard shoulder along the main new road) so would form one of the 'expressways'. However, given all the chaos surrounding smart motorways due to lack of hard shoulder I am a far convinced that this will ever happen, even though it would be the exact same road (save for the colours of the signs) and in my view only improve safety as it would ban tractors etc.

[wrinkly]

Did the new A14 end up with a similar clause? I seem to remember a bit of a saga.

[Bryn666]

It'll end up with six roundels and lots of green signs, it'll never end up as a motorway.

[KeithW]

Did the new A14 end up with a similar clause? I seem to remember a bit of a saga.

It sounds like a clause to cover their backside on the remote chance somebody decides to make the new A428/A421 into a special road.

[roadphotos]

It looks like work has already started on the A421 scheme

[JohnnyMo]

Did the new A14 end up with a similar clause? I seem to remember a bit of a saga.

IIRC -- No the A1, directly south of the A1(M). The saga was it is not a motorway, we need to put in VSL, therefore we need to make it a motorway so it can have VSL. No we've found a way to have a none special road with VSL so it does not have to be a motorway.

[JohnnyMo]

Did the new A14 end up with a similar clause? I seem to remember a bit of a saga.

It sounds like a clause to cover their backside on the remote chance somebody decides to make the new A428/A421 into a special road.

I expect the it could be a special A road, All motorway are special roads, but not all special roads are motorways. Joe Public will wonder why it does not have

[Paul7755]

It looks like work has already started on the A421 scheme

Does that mean it’s no longer a “rumour”?

Have been confused by thread title for a while now…

[tom66]

It looks like work has already started on the A421 scheme

Does that mean it’s no longer a “rumour”?

Have been confused by thread title for a while now…

Yes, it's being built. Expected completion by 2027-2028.

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... on-gibbet/

[ravenbluemoon]

Looks like the route has been plotted onto Open Streetmap: SABRE Maps Link - it wasn't there a week ago as I was busy tracing the C roads around Bedford.

[OliverH]

One question: So what will happen to the Black cat?

[6637]

Looks like the route has been plotted onto Open Streetmap: SABRE Maps Link - it wasn't there a week ago as I was busy tracing the C roads around Bedford.

It was changed from "planned" (does not show up when simply browsing OSM) to "construction" (which does show up).

[trickstat]

One question: So what will happen to the Black cat?

If it is to be kept, I would assume that it would be kept on the roundabout once the new junction has been built.

[ravenbluemoon]

Looks like the route has been plotted onto Open Streetmap: SABRE Maps Link - it wasn't there a week ago as I was busy tracing the C roads around Bedford.

It was changed from "planned" (does not show up when simply browsing OSM) to "construction" (which does show up).

Ah, I didn't know how it was done so quickly, makes sense. I just cover it in black squiggly lines so don't really know what happens behind the scenes.

One question: So what will happen to the Black cat?

If it is to be kept, I would assume that it would be kept on the roundabout once the new junction has been built.

I would think it would be placed on the new roundabout. There was a lot of outrage when it disappeared/got kidnapped a few years ago.

[medgoode]

According to https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-road ... black-cat/:

We fully understand the importance of the black cat as a local landmark, so don't worry we will be looking after the cat and her kittens during construction. And be rest assured that the black cat will be returned once the build is over.