Smallest place signed from a motorway?

[Barkstar]

Trust me to overlook the very obvious Jct 11 on the M56 is SP Daresbury and Preston Brook - 246 and 809 residents respectively. I only use it a couple of times a week.

[Tater656]

You's are all talking about Scotch Corner but Piercebridge, the next junction North with 113 people, must be up there.

I was just popping in to mention this. Piercebridge is tiny but then I guess where else would you sign as a destination for the B6275? Bishop Auckland is much better routed via the A68 and Barnard Castle the A66 (or I would argue a new junction with the A67 to serve the west end of Darlington as the A68 West Auckland Road is a nightmare with west end traffic coming from the north). "Staindrop (B6279)" perhaps but then that is still really quite small (though bigger than Piercebridge)

On another note I think the reason Scotch Corner is being mentioned so often is the distance it is signed from. With its incredibly tiny population it seems mad to be signed from the end of the A194(M) and M6 J40 - Darlington would serve much better as a destination in these cases. Though personally I wouldn't count Scotch Corner as a settlement, instead a major junction that warrants signage and happens to have a few people living there (though you could argue those living there are maybe part of Middleton Tyas?)

[jabbaboy]

I was just popping in to mention this. Piercebridge is tiny but then I guess where else would you sign as a destination for the B6275? Bishop Auckland is much better routed via the A68 and Barnard Castle the A66 (or I would argue a new junction with the A67 to serve the west end of Darlington as the A68 West Auckland Road is a nightmare with west end traffic coming from the north). "Staindrop (B6279)" perhaps but then that is still really quite small (though bigger than Piercebridge)

Yeah totally agreed, it must be up there with one of the most pointless motorway junctions in the country, especially since, like you said, getting to the A67, A167 or generally anywhere to the East of Darlington, means you have to go through the place (or use one of the many rat runs) and can be a complete nightmare at times.

[Chris Bertram]

I was just popping in to mention this. Piercebridge is tiny but then I guess where else would you sign as a destination for the B6275? Bishop Auckland is much better routed via the A68 and Barnard Castle the A66 (or I would argue a new junction with the A67 to serve the west end of Darlington as the A68 West Auckland Road is a nightmare with west end traffic coming from the north). "Staindrop (B6279)" perhaps but then that is still really quite small (though bigger than Piercebridge)

Yeah totally agreed, it must be up there with one of the most pointless motorway junctions in the country, especially since, like you said, getting to the A67, A167 or generally anywhere to the East of Darlington, means you have to go through the place (or use one of the many rat runs) and can be a complete nightmare at times.

Don't forget that it used to be the southern terminus of the A1(M) Durham section (even though it was in the North Riding when opened), so it was a vital junction for non-motorway traffic to leave and take an alternative route.

[Tater656]

I was just popping in to mention this. Piercebridge is tiny but then I guess where else would you sign as a destination for the B6275? Bishop Auckland is much better routed via the A68 and Barnard Castle the A66 (or I would argue a new junction with the A67 to serve the west end of Darlington as the A68 West Auckland Road is a nightmare with west end traffic coming from the north). "Staindrop (B6279)" perhaps but then that is still really quite small (though bigger than Piercebridge)

Yeah totally agreed, it must be up there with one of the most pointless motorway junctions in the country, especially since, like you said, getting to the A67, A167 or generally anywhere to the East of Darlington, means you have to go through the place (or use one of the many rat runs) and can be a complete nightmare at times.

Don't forget that it used to be the southern terminus of the A1(M) Durham section (even though it was in the North Riding when opened), so it was a vital junction for non-motorway traffic to leave and take an alternative route.

Since the motorway upgrade though, while yes you can't practically remove a full junction, the importance given to it (especially travelling north) is excessive. There is no need for the lane drop. I would argue the Leeming-Barton widening should've extended one junction further so the lane drop/gain would be for the A66(M) which makes a load more sense

BUT going a bit off topic there so to go back (but risk reaching into fantasy roads territory), if a junction at the A67 were added as I mentioned, would Piercebridge get another mention alongside Darlington and Barnard Castle at the junction? Also would it be removed from signs heading southbound at the B6275 as it would be so much easier to go via the A67? (And at risk of again going off topic would the junction numbers south of there be renumbered if it were hypothetically added in to make the gap at Scotch Corner smaller (ie: Scotch Corner (A66) J53, Barton (B6275) J55, Blackwell (A66(M)) J56 and Merrybent (A67) J57) or would they simply whack it in as J57A?)

[jabbaboy]

Don't forget that it used to be the southern terminus of the A1(M) Durham section (even though it was in the North Riding when opened), so it was a vital junction for non-motorway traffic to leave and take an alternative route.

Yeah of course, but they chose to end it there. Could've always just extended it to Scotch Corner, which always seemed the more natural ending for the road anyway. I'm not sure when it was done but it was pretty much Motorway standard to the South of the junction anyway.

Since the motorway upgrade though, while yes you can't practically remove a full junction, the importance given to it (especially travelling north) is excessive. There is no need for the lane drop. I would argue the Leeming-Barton widening should've extended one junction further so the lane drop/gain would be for the A66(M) which makes a load more sense

BUT going a bit off topic there so to go back (but risk reaching into fantasy roads territory), if a junction at the A67 were added as I mentioned, would Piercebridge get another mention alongside Darlington and Barnard Castle at the junction? Also would it be removed from signs heading southbound at the B6275 as it would be so much easier to go via the A67? (And at risk of again going off topic would the junction numbers south of there be renumbered if it were hypothetically added in to make the gap at Scotch Corner smaller (ie: Scotch Corner (A66) J53, Barton (B6275) J55, Blackwell (A66(M)) J56 and Merrybent (A67) J57) or would they simply whack it in as J57A?)

To be honest, I'm surprised they didn't do the opposite and just end it short at Scotch Corner. The road was already motorway standard anyway - see: https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4596103 ... ?entry=ttu.

Always seemed overkill, considering the lane drop at the next junction.

Btw, I'm unsure whether the A67 would be the best place for a junction. From experience, an A1(N) to A66(E) link would be more useful so you can get onto the A167, or to the South of Darlington without having to go through it. Most traffic heading to Barnard Castle will likely be on the A688 / A66 heading towards it. The junctions would be too close to do both.

[wrinkly]

Don't forget that it used to be the southern terminus of the A1(M) Durham section (even though it was in the North Riding when opened), so it was a vital junction for non-motorway traffic to leave and take an alternative route.

Yeah of course, but they chose to end it there. Could've always just extended it to Scotch Corner, which always seemed the more natural ending for the road anyway. I'm not sure when it was done but it was pretty much Motorway standard to the South of the junction anyway.

The original dualling from Barton to Scotch Corner and for some distance further south was 1950s or early 60s, with a flat roundabout with the A66, and a separate flat junction with the A6108 with a central reservation gap.

Then the A1(M) Darlington bypass was opened in 1965 including the creation of the GSJ that is now J56.

Then there was an improvement about 1971-2, in which the A1 mainline was diverted to the east (the bit that you call pretty much motorway standard) and the two flat junctions with the A66 and A6108 were combined into the GSJ with the elongated roundabout. The original dualled A1 became the dualled section of the A6108.

Since the motorway upgrade though, while yes you can't practically remove a full junction, the importance given to it (especially travelling north) is excessive. There is no need for the lane drop. I would argue the Leeming-Barton widening should've extended one junction further so the lane drop/gain would be for the A66(M) which makes a load more sense

Very little traffic turns off at the A66(M), far more at the A66.

(At least that's how it always seems to me. When I've been on the A66(M) it has always seemed empty. But since writing the above I've checked the traffic figures on SABRE Maps and they seem pretty much equal.)

[KeithW]

There are some hotels at Scotch Corner and a caravan park, so it will have a non-zero population at any given time, up to a maximum of not very much when the hotels and caravan park are full.

The nearest settlement is Middleton Tyas with a population of 581 and is about a mile away. I dont think there has been a meaningful permanent settlement there since the Romans left. The hotels were originally coaching inns as I recall, it was a long way from Catterick to Darlington for a stage coach and the old route was via Middleton Tyas, Croft and Piercebrige.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /28537_034

There is a nice old sign here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4468742 ... &entry=ttu

In the list of Turnpike roads it is noted as being the junction of the Darlington to Middleton and Middleton-tyas Lane to Greta Bridge & Bowes turnpikes roads. There is no reference I could find to Scotch Corner other than the Three Tuns Hotel close to where the modern Scotch Corner Hotel now stands. As road traffic increased it was demolished in the 1930's and the current hotel built.

see
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/ar ... /index.cfm

As it was in the Roman era Catterick known then as Cataractonium was one of the major garrisons in turn for the Brigantes, Romans, Saxons, Normans etc to this day.

[KeithW]

BUT going a bit off topic there so to go back (but risk reaching into fantasy roads territory), if a junction at the A67 were added as I mentioned, would Piercebridge get another mention alongside Darlington and Barnard Castle at the junction? Also would it be removed from signs heading southbound at the B6275 as it would be so much easier to go via the A67? (And at risk of again going off topic would the junction numbers south of there be renumbered if it were hypothetically added in to make the gap at Scotch Corner smaller (ie: Scotch Corner (A66) J53, Barton (B6275) J55, Blackwell (A66(M)) J56 and Merrybent (A67) J57) or would they simply whack it in as J57A?)

Very much so, the B6275 was on Dere Street and as is so often true its in the Wiki.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... itle=B6275

[KeithW]

As an addition here are some nice photos of the new Scotch Corner layout in the 60's and 70's when it was rebuilt.
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/histo ... /#gallery0

[jabbaboy]

Don't forget that it used to be the southern terminus of the A1(M) Durham section (even though it was in the North Riding when opened), so it was a vital junction for non-motorway traffic to leave and take an alternative route.

Yeah of course, but they chose to end it there. Could've always just extended it to Scotch Corner, which always seemed the more natural ending for the road anyway. I'm not sure when it was done but it was pretty much Motorway standard to the South of the junction anyway.

The original dualling from Barton to Scotch Corner and for some distance further south was 1950s or early 60s, with a flat roundabout with the A66, and a separate flat junction with the A6108 with a central reservation gap.

Then the A1(M) Darlington bypass was opened in 1965 including the creation of the GSJ that is now J56.

Then there was an improvement about 1971-2, in which the A1 mainline was diverted to the east (the bit that you call pretty much motorway standard) and the two flat junctions with the A66 and A6108 were combined into the GSJ with the elongated roundabout. The original dualled A1 became the dualled section of the A6108.

Yeah thought so, if I'm correct the new road ran slightly further South of that junction didn't it? Until where the big layby used to be, which if I'm correct is the old dual carriageway?

Would answer the reason why the old bridge for the farm which has now been replaced is identical to those further North.

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4538879 ... ?entry=ttu - Point using old Google maps views.

[Paul7755]

[…]
Though personally I wouldn't count Scotch Corner as a settlement, instead a major junction that warrants signage and happens to have a few people living there (though you could argue those living there are maybe part of Middleton Tyas?)

I said just that, quoting the Post Office “address finder”, back on 5th Jan. Places on the road known as Scotch Corner are a part of Middleton Tyas.

[wrinkly]

Tyne Tunnel, population 0?

[Tater656]

Tyne Tunnel, population 0?

Technically yes. Alongside Forth Road Bridge (and for that matter most of the bridges signed up in Scotland), Humber Bridge, Dartford Crossing etc and if you really want to argue it every airport signed from a motorway.
Maybe this thread could've been better titled as 'smallest settlement signed from the motorway'.

[wrinkly]

Tyne Tunnel, population 0?

Technically yes. Alongside Forth Road Bridge (and for that matter most of the bridges signed up in Scotland), Humber Bridge, Dartford Crossing etc and if you really want to argue it every airport signed from a motorway.
Maybe this thread could've been better titled as 'smallest settlement signed from the motorway'.

Incidentally, before posting the example of the Tyne tunnel, I looked at some places on Scottish motorways where I thought there would be signs for the FRB, and there weren't.

[wallmeerkat]

Tyne Tunnel, population 0?

Technically yes. Alongside Forth Road Bridge (and for that matter most of the bridges signed up in Scotland), Humber Bridge, Dartford Crossing etc and if you really want to argue it every airport signed from a motorway.
Maybe this thread could've been better titled as 'smallest settlement signed from the motorway'.

Incidentally, before posting the example of the Tyne tunnel, I looked at some places on Scottish motorways where I thought there would be signs for the FRB, and there weren't.

Don't get me started on lack of signage for FRB

Then conversely, a street in St Andrews, this way for ALL the bridges! https://www.google.com/maps/@56.3419969 ... ?entry=ttu

[Big L]

I’m not sure all of these bridges, tunnels, airports etc are “small places”. Small populations, yes, but not small places.

[wallmeerkat]

I’m not sure all of these bridges, tunnels, airports etc are “small places”. Small populations, yes, but not small places.

Yes, I think Piercebridge is the current champion?

You's are all talking about Scotch Corner but Piercebridge, the next junction North with 113 people, must be up there.

[KeithW]

Piercebridge is about as small as it gets with a population of 113 and was built inside the old Roman Fort. However it is a place with some history having been on the line of the Roman Road of Dere Street - the B6275. As I recall it was featured in an episode of the Time Team.



https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pierc ... &entry=ttu