Great North Road book updates

[Lonewolf]

I still get occasional information on the GNR sent to me. I don't have enough to do a second book or even an update, so I made a Facebook page to share the info.

https://www.facebook.com/gtnorthroad if anyone's interested

[KeithW]

I still get occasional information on the GNR sent to me. I don't have enough to do a second book or even an update, so I made a Facebook page to share the info.

https://www.facebook.com/gtnorthroad if anyone's interested

Excellent , this is a road I have been using regularly since 1979 but there is always something new to learn.

[autismuk]

It's indicative of how my family views me that despite having bought the book myself (which is excellent), three people have bought me a copy of it

[DeptForLameExcuses]

Steve Silk, journalist on BBC Look East, cycled from London to Edinburgh in 11 days, and wrote a well-researched book in July 2021.

If you've bought one, then you'll buy the other? The book

[Justin Smith]

Not sure if this is the best thread to ask this question, but I'll go ahead anyway !

I am trying to research the route the Great North Road took through Newcastle prior to the 1928 opening of the Tyne Bridge.
Did it go over Stephenson's 1849 High Level bridge ? Or the later 1876 swing bridge ?
Which bridge did it use before that ? ! ?
Thanks

[Ritchie333]

I looked at this in detail some years back. Although it's difficult to work out, I figured some things out by looking at the relevant MOT map, routes such as A1057 (Newcastle upon Tyne), and a knowledge that roads did not go out of zone at all originally. That leaves me to conclude that at classification, the A1 went along the High Level Bridge, past the castle and cathedral, and along Newgate Street and Percy Street.

This doesn't imply it was the original Great North Road, but the MOT was quite keen to put major single digit roads on historic postal / coaching routes, and as this path connects the cathedral, castle and station, it makes perfect sense that's where the traffic would go. It also might explain why they didn't pay attention to the 1876 upgrade to the Swing Bridge. That originally carried the A184.

[Justin Smith]

I looked at this in detail some years back. Although it's difficult to work out, I figured some things out by looking at the relevant MOT map, routes such as A1057 (Newcastle upon Tyne), and a knowledge that roads did not go out of zone at all originally. That leaves me to conclude that at classification, the A1 went along the High Level Bridge, past the castle and cathedral, and along Newgate Street and Percy Street.

This doesn't imply it was the original Great North Road, but the MOT was quite keen to put major single digit roads on historic postal / coaching routes, and as this path connects the cathedral, castle and station, it makes perfect sense that's where the traffic would go. It also might explain why they didn't pay attention to the 1876 upgrade to the Swing Bridge. That originally carried the A184.

Interesting....
I have to say one would have thought that the GNR would have gone on the High Level Bridge for two reasons :

1 - The High Level Bridge was opened in 1849 and work did not start on the swing bridge till 1873 (according to Wiki) and it was opened in 1876. Apparently the previous bridge (on the site of the swing bridge) was demolished in 1863 and one assumes they would have known it was going to be demolished before that date. It is of course possible that the GNR could have gone along the previous bridge but there would have been a gap of 14 years when the High Level Bridge would have had to have been used anyway. Plus.....

2 - Surely the High Level Bridge would be the obvious choice rather than all traffic having to descend to the level of the Tyne then climb back up again on the other side ?

[Justin Smith]

2 - Surely the High Level Bridge would be the obvious choice rather than all traffic having to descend to the level of the Tyne then climb back up again on the other side ?

I found this on the "Historic England" website. It is actually referring to the 1928 Tyne Bridge but the argument is essentially the same as the one I made earlier today :

The idea of a high level road bridge to align with the Great North Road and carry traffic across the River Tyne without having to descend to river level had been discussed as early as 1860

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/ ... list-entry

[KeithW]

Interesting....
I have to say one would have thought that the GNR would have gone on the High Level Bridge for two reasons :

1 - The High Level Bridge was opened in 1849 and work did not start on the swing bridge till 1873 (according to Wiki) and it was opened in 1876. Apparently the previous bridge (on the site of the swing bridge) was demolished in 1863 and one assumes they would have known it was going to be demolished before that date. It is of course possible that the GNR could have gone along the previous bridge but there would have been a gap of 14 years when the High Level Bridge would have had to have been used anyway. Plus.....

2 - Surely the High Level Bridge would be the obvious choice rather than all traffic having to descend to the level of the Tyne then climb back up again on the other side ?

Well the railway was indeed run over the High Level Bridge but one deck carried the road (tolled at 1/2p for foot use and 4p for horse bus from 1850, the problem was the bridge was extremely congested hence the construction of the Swing Bridge and later King Edward VII Bridge in 1906. The rail traffic to Scotland passed over the High Level bridge.

Road Deck


Rail level



The old low level bridge was a big problem because the size of the ships and the frequency of opening the bridge was a problem as road traffic had increased.

[Justin Smith]

Great pics Keith, but, due to me using the GNR acronym confusion has arisen. It was the route of the Great North Road I was referring to rather than the Great Northern Railway (though it was actually the North Eastern Railway north of Doncaster ! ).

SMT trimmed excessive quoting

[KeithW]

Well at the time the photos were taken things were complicated. The service north of York was provided by a partnership of the North Eastern Railway and North British Railway with the trains running on the top level of the High Level Bridge and the Great North Road on the lower deck.

The naming of the railways before the grouping of 1923 was a mess. In 1854 numerous smaller railways amalgamated to form the North Eastern Railway and it survived long enough to become the London and North Eastern Railway (LNER). One of the outcomes of the amalgamation was the abandonment of much of the electrification between Newcastle, Shildon and Teesside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NER_electric_units
https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ef1eb1.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyneside_Electric

Here is the pre grouping map of the North Eastern Railway.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... y_1920.jpg

Many years ago when they were refurbishing Middlesbrough Railway Station a number of versions were found which had just been boarded over.

The Great North Road had many iterations over the years as this book on the Internet Archive will show.

The Great North Road, the Old Mail Road to Scotland: London to York

It was published in the days when the main form of travel was the Stage Coach.

[Justin Smith]

The Great North Road had many iterations over the years as this book on the Internet Archive will show.

The Great North Road, the Old Mail Road to Scotland: London to York

It was published in the days when the main form of travel was the Stage Coach.

Interesting link Keith.

As far as I can research the relevant dates for a Great North Road over the Tyne. I suppose we are entering nebulous territory as regards the Great North Rd and the A1 which are no longer the same in this area ? :

First bridge the Roman Pons Aelius bridge, approx AD122.
A number of other wooden bridges built (due to flood damage etc) on the same site.
First stone bridge built approx 1250 onwards, eventually destroyed by floods in 1771.
Replacement stone bridge constructed to 1781, the Great North Road undoubtedly used this bridge
The 1781 bridge was demolished in 1868 and replaced by the swing bridge opened in 1876.
For the purposes of determining which bridge the Great North Rod used, it cannot have been a bridge on this site between 1868 and 1876 as there was no bridge there between those dates !

Meanwhile Stephenson's High Level Bridge (slightly down stream) included a road deck and was opened in 1849.

In the opposite direction, slightly upstream, the Tyne Bridge opened in 1928. The Great North Rd (in the form of the A1 at any rate) must surely have used this bridge (?) until the A1 was diverted east via the Tyne Tunnel in 1967, and finally west of Newcastle altogether when the bypass was opened in 1990 which crosses the Tyne on the Blaydon Bridge.

[Ritchie333]

I don't think the A1 was routed onto the Tyne Tunnel straight away. Indeed, in 1975 that road was still the A108, and non-primary to the north.

The next map of the area I've got dates from 1982, and shows the A1 routed through the tunnel.

[Justin Smith]

This reference agrees with you :

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... yne_Tunnel

It says, rather surprisingly, that the A1 was only routed through the tunnel in 1977.

[wrinkly]

This reference agrees with you :

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... yne_Tunnel

It says, rather surprisingly, that the A1 was only routed through the tunnel in 1977.

Why is that surprising?

[KeithW]

Interesting link Keith.

As far as I can research the relevant dates for a Great North Road over the Tyne. I suppose we are entering nebulous territory as regards the Great North Rd and the A1 which are no longer the same in this area ? :

First bridge the Roman Pons Aelius bridge, approx AD122.
A number of other wooden bridges built (due to flood damage etc) on the same site.
First stone bridge built approx 1250 onwards, eventually destroyed by floods in 1771.
Replacement stone bridge constructed to 1781, the Great North Road undoubtedly used this bridge
The 1781 bridge was demolished in 1868 and replaced by the swing bridge opened in 1876.
For the purposes of determining which bridge the Great North Rod used, it cannot have been a bridge on this site between 1868 and 1876 as there was no bridge there between those dates !

Meanwhile Stephenson's High Level Bridge (slightly down stream) included a road deck and was opened in 1849.

In the opposite direction, slightly upstream, the Tyne Bridge opened in 1928. The Great North Rd (in the form of the A1 at any rate) must surely have used this bridge (?) until the A1 was diverted east via the Tyne Tunnel in 1967, and finally west of Newcastle altogether when the bypass was opened in 1990 which crosses the Tyne on the Blaydon Bridge.

The current road numbering system was only introduced in 1922/23 , here is the first map of Newcastle showing road numbers.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... &layer=mot

The route an individual would take would depend on the start and end points. In the 1970's when heading for Eastern Scotland from Teesside would be the A19/A689/A68 and B701 to the Forth Road Bridge, once the worst of the A66 was dualled it would A66/M6/A174(M)/M74

[Justin Smith]

This reference agrees with you :

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... yne_Tunnel

It says, rather surprisingly, that the A1 was only routed through the tunnel in 1977.

Why is that surprising?

I would have thought rerouting the A1, the main road from England to Scotland, away from the centre of Newcastle with nearly all traffic going over one bridge, the Tyne Bridge (the present Redheugh Bridge wasn't opened till 1983 and the previous one apparently had serious capacity/speed restriction issues), would be a priority ?

[Justin Smith]

The current road numbering system was only introduced in 1922/23 , here is the first map of Newcastle showing road numbers.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... &layer=mot

The route an individual would take would depend on the start and end points. In the 1970's when heading for Eastern Scotland from Teesside would be the A19/A689/A68 and B701 to the Forth Road Bridge, once the worst of the A66 was dualled it would A66/M6/A174(M)/M74

I still find it incredible seeing a major road like the A1 going through the centre all these towns (like Morpeth on the map you linked to) !

[KeithW]

I would have thought rerouting the A1, the main road from England to Scotland, away from the centre of Newcastle with nearly all traffic going over one bridge, the Tyne Bridge (the present Redheugh Bridge wasn't opened till 1983 and the previous one apparently had serious capacity/speed restriction issues), would be a priority ?

Well at the time there was just one Tyne Tunnel with a single lane each way !

The problem was that the ONLY other way to cross the Tyne was through these routes
1) High Level Bridge - narrow and one way.

2) The Swing Bridge down this road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.9667199 ... &entry=ttu

3) Over the Tyne Bridge which was OK once they built the Gateshead Highway which opened in the 1970's. Even then you ended driving along what was then the A1 here and joined the end of a queue of slow moving traffic all the way to the A1(M)

At that time all that was there was this.
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.9540155 ... &entry=ttu

You have to also remember that this was about the time the Newcastle Central Motorway scheme was cancelled along with similar plans for Leeds.
https://www.ciht.org.uk/media/8065/newc ... torway.pdf

This was the height of the 1970's depression when as a result of the oil price shock and the collapse of heavy industry inflation levels were at a level of 20% plus. To make things worse I recall petrol prices went through the roof as OPEC reduced supply to Europe. In 1979 despite being a qualified and experienced engineer I had to move to South East England to find work.

As a result 75% of the Central Motorway Scheme was never completed. By the time they could find money for a bypass the old heavy industrial area to the west was derelict and they built the Western Bypass. By then of course the Tyne and Wear Metro was carrying large numbers of passengers.

Old Industrial area in 1947
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAW033907

[vlad]

The problem was that the ONLY other way to cross the Tyne was through these routes
1) High Level Bridge - narrow and one way.

Was the High Level Bridge one-way at that time? It was definitely two-way in the 1990s, although I'll agree that it's narrow!