User talk:C2r

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You've probably spotted I've added a rough list of trams here: Sandbox:Tramway. I compiled most of it ages ago (well, September after visiting Crich) and have just filled in a few blanks this afternoon. I also have it as an excel file if that is of any interest. I'm not quite sure what use it is, but feel free to use or ignore it. Rileyrob (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Rob - I admit I know very little about trams, but had a photo of some from America and saw that we didn't have a page, so started one and then thought "well why not try and get others interested in the wiki by asking people to help" - if nobody does, I'll get around to it at some point, after I've put my favourite American photos up, and also got Cambridgeshire done on the C-Road hunt... C2r (talk) 17:54, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

CatMaps template and C roads

Hi, I've noticed that the CatMaps template that identifies whether or not a road page has a map in the routebox doesn't seem to work for C roads... I don't understand enough about wiki source code to know whether it can be modified easily, or how many other things that would break. The template is pretty redundant on the class III road hidden categories in its current form. Might you be able to look into it? Gca690 (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Fixed! Rileyrob (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Thanks both - I hadn't noticed that - I've been suffering a bit with a cold and so was just doing some repetitive copy and paste tasks to get the background for the other authorities set up and didn't have the brainpower to do anything else! C2r (talk) 21:01, 12 January 2018 (UTC)


Just a quick question - are the two new A14(M) pages the wrong way around? Surely the extant A14(M) should be in the primary "A14(M)" page, and the potential, maybe, perhaps Expressway should be at "A14(M) (Expressway)" or something?

Oh, and additionally, there was actually a proposal in the 1990s to extend the extant A14(M) southwards to Girton. It's mentioned in the 1994 Trunk Roads: England report as "A14(M) Bar Hill - M1-A1 Link Road", and is mentioned on PM.

Steven (talk) 13:13, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Steven,
It's a bit of a difficult one - I've moved the page because of the confusion with the expressway proposals. I also think that the section will probably be renumbered again with the opening of the Huntingdon to Cambridge improvements but even if not it really forms a different route to the proposed A14 expressway.
I'll update again to include the 1994 proposals later. C2r (talk) 13:26, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
While it is a bit early, that stretch of road will become presumably technically be the A1307(M) when the new A14 opens so if Brampton-Girton opens as A14(M) then the pages are named right for then. I guess we can M25 (Republic of Ireland) the new build bit - where it was built as N25, but we all assumed it would open as M25, due to the redesignation binge going on at the time, only for it to not open as motorway - and so have that future route, the more important road, as the main article. Though I'm more with Steven on this. Have A14(M) (Expressway) even if the current one keeps its name. A14(M) as a disambiguation page. Si404 (talk) 15:55, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
I agree with having a disambiguation page - I've done that, moved the expressway page, and re-added the information re: the 1994 scheme. Thanks both C2r (talk) 10:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


Hi Chris, The Sanday where the new road has been built is next to Canna in the small isles (near Skye), not on Orkney! Rileyrob (talk) 08:26, 13 June 2018 (BST)

good that one of us is paying attention! C2r (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2018 (BST)


Now you're just showing off. That's a cruise ship, not a ferry. Rileyrob (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2018 (BST)

Ha, it's got a regular scheduled service between Southampton and Brooklyn, so I think it counts. I've not included other cruises or charter vessels, or sailing ships that don't meet this criteria! I think I'm nearly there with it now (I clearly like boats - you're not doing so bad yourself!) - there's probably a few more smaller passenger ferries across rivers and things that I should include - the ability to use different colours would be nice... C2r (talk) 16:43, 21 June 2018 (BST)


C2r look on the A1/Adwick le Street - Darrington page and you'll see that I'm right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey (talkcontribs) 19:26, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Crossing template improvements.

Hi Chris, excellent work on this - adding loads of features we should have had long ago (and I love the links to the actual listings). A few requests (I'm sure you are on the case for many already):

  • The metres to feet and inches conversion doesn't need the inches as that's overkill accuracy that goes beyond the initial measurement!
  • Height might also be useful to be able to add for bridges and tunnels (to show depth), when they are notable.
  • The length and gridref fields from the Routebox template would be be useful for longer crossings - ferries as well as bridges, passes and tunnels.
  • Max-grade for passes would be a useful field
  • Do we have tunnel types (bored, cut-and-cover, immersed tube)? If not, do we want that?

Si404 (talk) 12:40, 15 September 2018 (BST)

Thanks Si, yes, I've been figuring out how it all works and am putting together a series of changes that are around trying to use as much common code as possible, fixing bugs, and adding new fields and automated categorisation; I have documented everything I've done in a wiki page so that we have a record of what we're including and what we're not (and why) - seeUser:C2r/2018 Infobox changes.
  • I'll add a parameter to the metres to ft/in conversion to determine whether the template asks it for inches - in some cases there may be a need if we're measuring something quite small.
  • Yes, I'm planning to add a height for bridges (and a depth for tunnels) - again, one of the things I'd want to be able to do is list dynamically the ten highest bridges in the country, or the highest bridge in each county. As we're all about roads and facts and figures, that we can't just have pages that dynamically update to include this information is a source of frustration to me!
  • See Cork - Santander ferry where I've put in duration and length - I'm planning to bring the gridrefs from the routebox into the infobox, yes.
  • Yes, I'll get to more on hill passes later, I agree.
  • Probably, yes - we're thinking about categorisation of things as at the moment many things are categorised in one giant category that is practically valueless (e.g. all crossings) - although useful for AWB of course.
I seem to have broken the navbox on O'Connell Bridge though - I think it's because the category contains an apostrophe. I'll have to look at that later. C2r (talk) 13:39, 15 September 2018 (BST)
Fixed in navbox sandbox - dpl needs urldecode PAGENAMEE against the category if apostrophes, spaces, or ampersands are used. C2r (talk) 20:45, 15 September 2018 (BST)

Junctions / Acomhail

Hi, Chris. Please see my reply to your note about Bannons Cross Roads on my Talk page.

With regard to another Co. Louth intersection, I'd just like to announce my intention of combining the Ballymascanlan Interchange and Ballymascanlan Roundabout pages the next time they come up -- but having just passed that point in my review schedule, the change may not happen for a little time yet! -- Viator (talk) 12:33, 9 April 2019 (BST)

Thanks - Yes, I agree that we should probably have one page instead of four for Ballymascanlan Interchange / Roundabout / Faughart Lower Roundabout / Majors Hollow Roundabout, as these form part of a single intersection, despite having separately named constituent parts. Similarly for the Carrickcarnan Roundabout that I just added and Feede Interchange. I have a plan for the combining of child infoboxes within parents that I've started to express on the forums - - the same would apply for junctions where constituent parts have importance and I was thinking of exactly the Ballymac when I was looking at this. I think this will give us a richer descriptive set of articles while at the same time preserving technical categorisation and wondery in the background that allows us to run AWB to clean up articles and identify those in need of maintenance.
with regard to minor junctions, I know that many places including very minor turns in Ireland have names, but finding meanings can be lost in time and our wiki is somewhere that some of this knowledge can be preserved - for example, Redemptorists Hill in Dundalk - it's called that by locals still, despite there being no hill for over a decade (and the hill was really a bridge over a railway anyway); similarly with English junction names called after long deceased pubs. We're not wikipedia, requiring everything to have a reason, although I accept that navigation and categorisation does need to allow us to find important things - partially this is why we've been improving automatic categorisation to not clutter county and authority pages - e.g. class III roads have subpages and don't appear in the parent county's navbox, and junction box changes similarly have prevented these from directly appearing (unless manually categorised, which is why I removed County Louth category from the Carrickcarnan roundabout, so it appears under its junctions page only). As for Bannons Cross, I suspect it may sadly be just a corruption or anglicisation of boggy crossroads though, rather than being named after an ancient family or house. Ah well, such is life... C2r (talk) 14:58, 9 April 2019 (BST)

Denmark: route prefixes

As you may know, I very rarely revert straight reverts (too many other things to be done!) -- but I do have to say that I've never seen any route numbers in Denmark prefixed with either PR or SR, so I've made an exception in this case. You may have been there more recently than I have, but, as far as I am aware, no prefixes other than E are ever used in Denmark. -- Viator (talk) 11:18, 13 May 2019 (BST)

In Denmark, where PR are the primary roads "Primærrute" and SR are the secondary roads "Sekundærrute". You are right that I don't think I've ever seen them displayed on the signs, as shields only are used. However, again, this is something that we should discuss rather than simply removing the data - do we include prefixes that aren't shown? I would advocate doing so, in the same way that Germany uses A and B, although neither are signed. This is why I added them back in... C2r (talk) 19:14, 13 May 2019 (BST)

Yes, I'm well aware that PR and SR have been used in the SABRE Wiki as short forms of primærruter and sekundærruter -- though only in the SABRE Wiki, as far as I know. The status of the primær- and sekundærruter is, as you agree, indicated on signage only by colour coding and the number of digits. And, of course, a prefix can only be a prefix it is ...well, prefixed to something.

I don't think we're greatly at odds on this -- except that I do think that the contents of the prefixes field in the Country infobox should be confined to a list of real prefixes as really seen by the road user. The place for a full listing, and further explanation, of road categories is in the main body of the article. (This I was going to move on to, after checking all the infoboxes: it's been done by others for a number of countries, but in most cases it's work that has yet to be started.)

The problem with attempting to list every category of road in the prefixes field is that categories generally outnumber prefixes, and often by a very large margin. Finland, for example has no less than 15 road categories (without even counting the E-roads, although their numbers are, as in Ireland, simply an add-on to the national numbering system, of which they don't form a part) but only the numbers of roads in the "top four" categories are displayed -- all without prefixes, furthermore. (What Marcel Monterie calls "maantiet", BTW, is not an official classification: his "maantiet" are either yhdystiet / förbindelsevägar (1000-9999, numbers signed) or paikallistiet / lokala vägar (11000-19999, numbers not signed). Eleven of the 15 categories have numbers (in the range 11000 to 99999) that are "administrative only"

Returning for a moment to the case of Denmark, here we have a class of roads -- motorways -- that are administratively numbered (in a series running from M3 to M710), but this, of course, is purely for internal purposes. These are numbers that lie "on top of" the national road numbering system. That fact is certainly worth mentioning when the road-numbering section of the article on Denmark comes to be written, but I hope you will agree that M should not feature in the prefixes field.

I will repeat all of this on the Template:Country discussion page which I plan to create once I've completed my present "pass" of the Country pages. In the meantime, I'll restrict any corrections/completions to the General data section of the infoboxes (plus the Signal sequence field where this has been unpopulated). -- Viator (talk) 09:24, 14 May 2019 (BST)

Yes, I'm not really wedded to the idea of displaying unsigned prefixes, and can see the logic in not doing so. I'm therefore happy for us to go with the consensus that the prefixes should be those that are generally visible on signage (i.e. "C" class therefore wouldn't appear in the UK page, as it's generally agreed that C roads aren't signed, but "L" roads in Ireland would be listed as they are shown), and that therefore these should be removed from the infobox - obviously we need to be consistent across countries and I can update the template documentation on the template page to indicate this (there aren't that many countries so it shouldn't affect the job queue). C2r (talk) 19:14, 14 May 2019 (BST)

Irish Terminal/Intermediate destinations

Whilst you're playing with the Primary Destination template...

We could do with another maintenance category that checks for use of "next=" and "near=" (instead of "next_td=" and "near_td=") for places in the Republic of Ireland, as I've noticed this morning there appears to be quite a lot of them. There will be inevitably some usage in border areas where "next=" and "near=" should be used for places in Northern Ireland, but I can't think of a pixie magic way to check. And the reverse of course, as "next_td" should sometimes be used in Northern Ireland, for example, Letterkenny on the Derry page; but again I can't think of a way of flagging that up. Steven (talk) 10:36, 9 April 2020 (BST)

Hull - Rotterdam Ferry

Are you sure it's this ferry which is facing the axe? All the reports I've read says it's Hull - Zeebrugge.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Truvelo (talkcontribs) 09.10.20 19:41

You're correct; I've amended the pages - thank you. C2r (talk) 23:31, 10 October 2020 (BST)

Irish desinations/images

Hi I would like help on the towns that weren't made yesterday on the wikis, like Midleton, Macroom and Newcastle West, like is there a way to upload an image showing like the Macroom Bypass on the east of the town..without uploading to the thing near the destination s of the Republic of Ireland? -Niall65678

Hello, I'm not quite sure what you're asking - you can use the Upload file link in the left menu to upload an image, and you can either do this locally from your own PC (if under 1MB), or you can choose a Geograph image to use (I think you have to use the UK version of the site, but the Irish images are on there as well). You then categorise it by gallery, e.g. Macroom as well as the road number in view of the picture (if there is one), and once the file is uploaded you can then use the image title in the image= section of the town's infobox and add a caption= text to give some narrative. C2r (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2021 (BST)

Is there an Irish town which is an intermediate Destination that hasn't been created yet on a wiki?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Niall65678 (talkcontribs) 10:11, 6 November 2021‎

No, there isn't - all the terminal and intermediate destinations are specified in the Sign Manual and are listed in the table here: Terminal_Destination C2r (talk) 11:58, 6 November 2021 (UTC)


I'm just curious, what is the youngest town in Ireland? User:Midletonperson

Maybe Adamstown in South Dublin? C2r (talk) 23:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Irish Terminal and Intermediate Destinations

Does Ballybofey or Stranorlar get the title of being a terminal destination? Signed: User:Midletonperson

Stranorlar is... it's listed on Terminal_Destination C2r (talk) 21:02, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Dunkettle Interchange

Has there been a wiki about the Dunkettle Interchange project? Midletonperson

Hello, junction improvements don't tend to get their own project page - we'd include detail on the page about the junction itself; so you can see that Dunkettle Interchange has got some information relating to the latest improvements. The main issue is that there's not enough hours in the day for me to deal with documenting all the junction improvements that go on in GB and Ireland, so we also tend to link the talk pages to the relevant forums threads so that observations and updates made by members are accessible, and can be used in future by people to update the articles to include further information and maps. Beechtrees and Breakspears Interchanges for example, shows how maps and historical information about the junctions over time can be included. C2r (talk) 08:57, 27 December 2021 (UTC)


Are we allowed to edit the Template:Places in the Republic of Ireland? Midletonperson

Yes, it's not protected. C2r (talk) 14:16, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

OSM Map Tracing

How do you make an OpenStreetMap Trace on OpenStreetMap? Midletonperson

Hello, two ways - they're either imported from OpenStreetMap (which is a scripted process that you can't do), or you use SABRE Maps to create them here. See SABRE Maps/Tracing or full details. C2r (talk) 07:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Intermediate Destinations

Are Intermediate destinations always signed on confirmation signs? Like if Listowel is signed on the N69 from Tralee and Limerick, would that be considered as a intermediate destination MidletonPerson

Listowel is an intermediate destination on the N69, because it is listed here as an Intermediate Destination of the N69: Terminal_Destination - my understanding is that they would usually be signed along the route, although I'd have to read the full guidance again to determine exactly when. C2r (talk) 11:13, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

About Newbridge

Is Newbridge ever gonna replace the disambiguation for the actual Newbridge town in County Kildare, since it's the only real place which is called Newbridge? Midletonperson.

No, it isn't; we're not a gazetteer of place names, and therefore some of the bridges that are listed are more relevant to the wiki than a commuter town in Kildare.... C2r (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


Software of what you use to make traces, Midletonperson

As above, see: SABRE Maps/Tracing C2r (talk) 07:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Irish template

Can I add some Irish templates in some Irish towns that haven't updated their routes for a long time? User: Midletonperson

Yes, feel free to use the Irish template in any route lists. C2r (talk) 12:30, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Trace Format

Why is the trace on the roads only say like N5/N52.osm instead of user/<username>/<trace.osm>

Because that's where they're stored on the server. The format is explained in Help:Maps. Steven (talk) 13:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Category:Needs Image

Hi Chris, I've noticed that a lot of pages have both 'Needs Image' & 'Articles with pictures in the gallery' in the Hidden Categories line at the bottom, which obviously can't be right. None of the pages actually have the needs image template tag in them, nor do they have Cat:Needs Image, nor the text An image has been requested for this article as far as I can see.

I thought this might be something to do with whether or not an image is provided in the routebox / infobox. Now, obviously, the roads pages have never really had images in the routebox, which means that they all seem to be filed in 'Needs Image'. However I can't actually find 'Needs Image' in the Routebox or Infobox templates, so I'm at a loss as to where it is being generated. While this really needs fixing to make it useful, it's also not urgent I don't suppose!

Hope your move has all gone smoothly. Rileyrob (talk) 15:35, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Rob, yes, I've got internet in at the new house now, which is fantastic news. You're right with regard to how this is generated, either as a result of:
I agree that we need some thought about this - I was thinking we separate out the categories, so that InfoboxImageGallery puts the images into a new category called something like "Infoboxes without Images" so we can tell which of those are manually set and which are automatically set - what do you reckon?
C2r (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Aha! I now see where the problem lies! I'd been trying to find where the Needs Image template was being used, but that other template actually adds directly to the category (which I should have realised as the text doesn't appear on the page!)

If we can move that category to the lower bit where it decides whether to print the gallery link or the upload link, which looks like it is generated by yet another template? That should mean that only pages without images in the gallery get added to the category. I don't have access to edit the protected templates, though, and I can't quite follow the code either. Rileyrob (talk) 10:25, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

This is the sort of place where great care is needed that we don't break anything as we've got templates nested in other templates and called from a variety of places! I'm travelling next week in hotels so I'll try and review it then! C2r (talk) 10:29, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
As I'm going through looking at some of the bridge & junction pages, I'm seeing that the infobox has grown with lots of new info (no complaints!!) and so when it includes a photos as well it can disappear off the bottom of the screen, alongside two lines of text. I've therefore moved some images into the main text area to try and balance the two better, but of course then it gets added to Category:Needs Image!!! Crieff Bridge is an example of what I mean if you compare revisions.
I don't know whether this is something we maybe want to do en-masse now, or whether it is better as a case by case process? Rileyrob (talk) 15:06, 28 March 2022 (BST)

I've made some changes to the templates, basically there are now four hidden categories:

Note that it's going to take some time for the job queue to get through the recategorisation of every page on the system....

I've got enough on at the moment without actually doing anything with the above information, so don't have time to do an en-masse review of page images C2r (talk) 05:23, 30 March 2022 (BST)

Thanks for doing that Chris, I'm sure that it will prove useful in the longer term. I agree that there is no hurry to do an en-masse review of page images, so I will continue to move images out of the infobox only where it helps to balance the page better, pending a proper decision in the future. Rileyrob (talk) 16:55, 30 March 2022 (BST)
Agreed - to some extent, things like site redesign may have some impact on what we actually need to do next; we need to make the wiki work better on mobile devices, but of course we need developer help for that... C2r (talk) 18:40, 30 March 2022 (BST)

Collapsable sections

I'm just doing some work on bilingual signs and notice there's a big translation table at bilingual signs#English-Welsh sign translation that could benefit from being collapsed, so it can be expanded on demand. However, I can't work out how to make Template:Collapse work properly. On "that other wiki" there are two templates: Template:cot and Template:cob that you just stick around something to collapse it. Can you help? Ritchie333 (talk) 13:18, 18 April 2023 (BST)

Done - it was something to do with tables embedded in template parameters needing to be escaped C2r (talk) 15:41, 18 April 2023 (BST)

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