User talk:Ross spur

References and Video List templates

Hello, I've reverted your removal of the References and Video List templates on A5111. These templates get and display items used elsewhere on the page. References should be added in line using the Template:Ref or Template:DocRef, while videos could be added using Template:Youtube or could have their own video page created, e.g. Video:Charmouth_Tunnel, which then embed within the page templates. Please let me know if any queries C2r (talk) 12:24, 4 May 2020 (BST)

I've forgotten about inserting videos so need a bit of help. Is the Youtube template just to inset the single line in an existing page edit rather than setting up a new page? Which would be the best method?

Hello, Yes, so Template:Youtube is the easiest way, which just allows you to embed the video where you like on the page. Creating a video page, however, allows the video to be be categorised and it is placed automatically onto pages and into the page's gallery. Generally, the latter is preferred (particularly for full length documentaries or longer videos), but it is obviously more complex. There might be editorial reasons on a page why you might want to put a briefer video in-line, e.g. if it demonstrates a particular thing you're talking about in a couple of seconds! So it's entirely up to you really C2r (talk) 22:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Have used Youtube template for Scammondon Dam since no separate page, with it being on M62 page. Decided not to upload the Barton High level Bridge video since it is mainly a home video of the pedestrian access day so little content about the construction or motorway.

Stamford Bypass Page

Really good work on bringing the page up to scratch, and with a video too - thank you C2r (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2020 (BST)

Linking a Youtube Video

Hello, linking a Youtube video is relatively straightforward. All you need to do is search for Video:the title of the video. It won't exist yet, so create it, and copy and paste from an existing video. By filling out the categories, the video appears in the page - see Video:2_Magnificent_Roads_(1924) as an example. C2r (talk) 19:19, 3 June 2020 (BST)

clear left

Hello, Did you know that you can use {{clear left}} to try and tell the browser to create a gap after an image/box, rather than adding lots of carriage returns - this is preferred as the number of carriage returns required may differ dependent on browser and screen resolution. Cheers C2r (talk) 20:47, 25 July 2020 (BST)

A1 improvement table

Hi there,

We could quite happily put together a couple of simple templates for this if it would help? One for the header row, and the others for each row, similar to the Network Changes one. Just give us a shout if it would be helpful. Steven (talk) 18:23, 5 August 2020 (BST)

Thanks for the offer,

The templates would be great so please go ahead. I sent an e-mail (with not realising how the User talk worked) to C2r with some further queries as to format for the information and whether to combine the tables or add a further table for Later Improvements . Shall I copy you in here?

User talks are really useful! I'm sure C2R has everything in hand, but give me a shout if I can be of assistance. Steven (talk) 19:03, 5 August 2020 (BST)

And the template's ready for use. There's probably a few visual tweaks that could do with being done, such as putting multiple counties on different lines rather than the same one, but that will all show up in use. See what you think! Steven (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2020 (BST)

Thanks for the help. I'll leave the maps for the time being and get going on all the sections. Good suggestion about the multiple counties, they will crop up so please add this feature. I did wonder whether it could be changed from south to north if a user wanted that function. Of course it could be done by having an initial number column for each line but the numbering could change if sections are inserted. Probably best to leave this until things are more complete. Cheers

Yeah, the map functionality is something I put in there because I could, and in case it's useful in terms of understanding where the improvement was. I can easily include OS Grid Reference columns for start and end points, which would include a link to SABRE Maps in the right location if that would be useful? Steven (talk) 11:14, 6 August 2020 (BST)

The maps do help to show where the locations are, especially the obscure names. I'll let you decide which entry method is best to cope with the different distances of the schemes. Other users may add the maps whilst I build the next table information.

I've added some more data, with some 2nd counties in the Notes box for the time being. The page will be named A1/Improvements Timeline following a C2r suggestion.

OK, well, if I sort it out so that the tables support Grid References, they can be put in at a later date if required. I didn't quite put it correctly - multiple county support (county, then county1 to county6) is already in place, it just probably needs the display of them tidying somewhat. Steven (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2020 (BST)

Hello again. From seeing the scheme locations I've added, the grid reference start/end point input would be useful. Will this show the map trace? If not, then please let me know how to do a map trace. Cheers.

Hello - I need to make some template adjustments to the templates as it currently isn't possible for the MapInList template to display traces. I'll see if I can do that this evening. In order to make the traces, you need to go to the Main Maps Page (Discover) and then click "trace path". You can then trace the route, and when you're finished click save and give it a name, e.g. A1Haddington1932 - this will be saved in your user traces folder as an OSM trace file. C2r (talk) 21:21, 16 August 2020 (BST)

Thanks for the advice. There is no rush for the display traces template, it will be a while before I am at that stage.

That's fine, I've been meaning to do it for ages for the abandoned roads pages and I've got a bit of time so looking at it now. As ever, shout up if you need anything C2r (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2020 (BST)

OK, that's now done - you can add |trace=user/Ross%20spur/A1Haddington1932.osm for example to an Improvement table tow to add a maptrace. Note I think spaces are replaced by %20 - if that doesn't work try an underscore - let me know if you run into issues and I'll take a look. Ta C2r (talk) 22:23, 16 August 2020 (BST)

I've done the Haddington trace (nice straight sections thankfully). I tried to add |trace=user/Ross%20spur/A1Haddington1932.osm to the Wiki page but could not get it to work. I tried the underscore also and also deleted the previous map entries. Please have a look sometime. Cheers

Ah, it was a capitalisation issue - your traces are saved as "Ross Spur" rather than "Ross spur" - in the same way that mine are c2R rather than C2r - I've added the Haddington one - it needs to be |trace=user/Ross%20Spur/A1Haddington1932.osm C2r (talk) 12:37, 17 August 2020 (BST)

Well deduced. I've got the hang of it now. Thanks again.

This page also might help you - it's a list of all your traces (and everyone elses) and their lengths: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/osmtraces/list.php - (if you ever want any deleting I can do that too). If you look at mine, I've tried to give them some sort of naming convention so that I can more easily reference them. C2r (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2020 (BST)

Wilton Road, Melton Mowbray

Hello, Wilton Road goes to the west of the town centre - although goes around the east of the Egerton estate - the text you've just added is a little ambiguous in meaning, if you see what I mean! C2r (talk) 09:18, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

My apologies, my error, and thanks for spotting. I should double check my west and easts! Have corrected

No need to apologise, easy mistake to make! C2r (talk) 19:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

A34 page

Hi, Is it ok to put the A34 opening dates on one table on the main page? At the moment there is a table in the Winchester to Oxford section but none yet in the other 2 road sections.

I've no objection to consolidating it all in a single table on the main page. C2r (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

It's come out a bit unwieldy on preview and would benefit from being in location order (with arrow allow date order) so I'll use the Improvements Head, as per the A1 Improvements Table, on a separate page and include maps.

OK, that sounds like a good idea C2r (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Black Country Route

I see you've added a section for the A454/A463 Black Country Route to the 1990s Network Changes with the phrase The westwards section from Keyway Junction to A4123 Birmingham New Road at Coseley was due to open in Summer 1995. I was wondering what the source for this is, as the first section to open (Section 5C) opened eastwards from the A4123 nine years before that date in 1986; and it reached the A41 by 1992. Steven (talk) 23:15, 29 June 2021 (BST)

Thanks for the notes. I'd seen a Commercial Motor archive article at http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/23rd-february-1995/27/roadworks and this, which intimated the entire scheme was up for tender in https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/archive/23jan92-uk-40-million-black-country-route-contract-winner-expected-to-be-announced-at-end-of-january-1992-in-england-the-40-million-black-country-route-is-expected-to-be-let-for-a-price-22-01-1992/ although looking at it again it could just refer to part of the scheme. I'll amend the 1995 section.

No worries - I can't find evidence for it on a quick look, but memory tells me that the final section to open was that between the Keyway Junction and Vulcan Road Island, including the A4444; which may well be the section that article is referring to. Presumably "to Wolverhampton" means to the local authority boundary, which is near the A4444 junction, given the phrasing of "Walsall section" for the part within Walsall MBC, but outside the town itself. Steven (talk) 07:22, 30 June 2021 (BST)

Your timeline table looks good on the Black Country Route page, thanks. Looks like the only local newspaper digitised so far, around the time, is the Sandwell Evening Mail which doesn't report much on the route, from the searches I have done.

Navbox|cat on junction page not showing road junction list at bottom of page

See Cow Hill Interchange - lists error re A167. Have I got the instruction wrong?

Also, what format should be used? Is it Navbox for the main route and the rel instruction in the sidebox for other routes (or vice versa)

No, you haven't got it wrong. When there isn't a template that's been created, the "cat" falls back on trying to read what other junctions are within the road's category. In this case, there are no other junctions, so it throws an error message.

As for whether it should appear in the Navbox or the Junction Box, well, that's a bit personal preference. Generally, if there's just a few junctions on a route, then it goes in the Junction Box. If there's more than that, it goes in the Navbox. Steven (talk) 08:33, 3 April 2022 (BST)

Note that suppressing the error message is on my long term forward list of things to fix - but it's not straightforward as the dpl plugin is a bit of a dark art! C2r (talk) 09:42, 3 April 2022 (BST)

Thanks both, will take note.

A876 (Glasgow)

Hi, I'm not questioning your edit here, just confused by it, and I'm not sure what your original source is. On the page you have put "However, although the new road from Anniesland Cross to Bowling had been completed in 1927, there was a 1200 yard gap around the Forth and Clyde Canal. There was no through route until the Cloberhill Bridge was opened on 16 September 1930." If this means, as I think it does, that the A876 had a complete gap, then it seems unlikely that it was issued the number when traffic was unable to get from one end to the other, and a lot of the dating of the additional Zone 8 numbers is hinged on the A876 number being issued in c1927.

I've had a look through the old maps on NLS and found this rather curious situation from 1933/6: https://maps.nls.uk/view/75498555 which shows a different (and even more perplexing) situation again. Looking at Streetview, the stonework of the western abutment matches the surviving work on Bearsden Road (now the A739) which was apparently built at the same time, in 1930. This also matches the narrowing of the new dual carriageway shown on the NLS map.

My real question I think is, was there any sort of temporary bridge here, because two new dead end dual carriageways for approx three years somehow seems unlikely, and allocating the A876 number to it even more so.

Thanks Rileyrob (talk) 15:00, 22 April 2022 (BST)

Looking at that map, it looks like simply the edge of the surveying for some reason; possibly because the mapping was compiled from several earlier county series sheets. If you look at the final building, you can see that the property boundary hasn't been completed and it looks like the SW corner of the building is missing; and the field boundaries to the east of Yorker Burn just end in the middle of nowhere too. Adding to this, if you look carefully at the "Forth & Clyde Canal" label, you can see that the final "L" is misaligned, again as if it was taken from a different sheet. The other possibility is that the NLS have accidentally stitched two maps together, but as they have A0 scanning facilities, I can't see that being the case here.

I would therefore take that map sheet with a whole Cheshire mine worth of salt! Steven (talk) 17:54, 22 April 2022 (BST)

Yes, it was an odd situation, there is fuller detail about the Cloberhill Bridge debacle and delay at https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A82/Great_Western_Road. No temporary bridge was mentioned. My research came from about 20 newspaper articles picked up from the British News Archive. It included The Scotsman, Milngavie and Bearden Herald and Dundee Evening Telegraph. One may help with the A876 number for your time frame. The Scotsman of 9 July 1927 had roadworks information from the Royal Scottish Automobile Club including A876 Duntocher - Bowling Boulevard, surface tarring near Bowling. This is the first reference to A876 I have found, since the road number was not mentioned in the article about that section's opening in December 1925. For each roadworks the road route was listed, then the location of the roadworks which would indicate that A876 initially applied to the Duntocher to Bowling section. Whether it was issued any earlier than 1927 I cannot say. I hope this is of help.

Thanks also for your comprehensive ongoing work on the Scottish A roads. I enjoy following the route details and history and especially the ones I have previously travelled over.

Thanks for your detailed reply, and the comprehensive notes on the A82 pages (I hadn't thought to look there!!). It still looks like a bit of a mess at the time, and the Duntocher to Bowling section is also a bit vague. I'm reasonably confident that the A8014 wouldn't have been numbered until after all the A8xx numbers were used, so presumably the A876 initially started on the A810, but the presence of the A878 confuses this too. Even Bowling begs the question of Dunglass Roundabout or Gavinburn Switch... Unless your very diligent research comes up with anything else, I fear these questions may never get satisfactorily answered.

I had thought that the Zone 8 road pages were all pretty good and complete (without going down to absurd detail like naming the trees along the verges!) but when planning a walk earlier in the year, I was trying to figure out the history of the A815 and was quite surprised at the lack of history on the page. I then started flicking through a few other random Scottish A roads, and realised that there was a huge variety in quality, with some pages essentially still retaining the old Roaders Digest Descriptions imported back in 2009. It seemed a worthwhile exercise to systematically go back through everything, checking / adding notable bridges and junctions as well. I've skipped past a few bits that need more thought, and it'll probably take me another year or 3 if I do all the B roads too!

I've also been interested to see some of your own research on opening dates etc. Some routes are proving to be a lot older or newer than I had assumed! Thanks. Rileyrob (talk) 22:25, 22 April 2022 (BST)

I've gone back to the first article I found about the authorisation of the Duntocher to Bowling Section in the 7 September 1923 Milngavie and Bearden Herald. The route was to be from the west end of the Glasgow Boulevard, a point near to Auchentoshan Farm, Duntochan to the junction with the existing main road along the Clyde towards Dunbarton at a point opposite Dunglass Castle. Length was to be 3 miles and 3 furlongs. It's on the OS Six inch at https://maps.nls.uk/view/75498528 . Hopefully that helps with the western junction.

You may have noticed that the newspapers stated are not too local, since the Twentieth Century Dunbarton and Glasgow papers have not yet been digitised for the British News Archive. If these come up I'm sure that they will have more detailed information, although they may still be a bit sparse concerning road numbers.

Ok, I have gone through and tried to explain what we know so far. Please adjust it if you think I have misunderstood any of your research, and thanks for doing it! Rileyrob (talk) 09:21, 25 April 2022 (BST)

One more small piece to add to the puzzle. I was looking at A806 (Canniesburn - Scotstoun) for an entirely different reason, and came across this Bartholomew's map dated 1924. It clearly shows Great Western Road open at that point east of Anniesland (which is to be expected from the 1922-23 MoT map), but it also shows the road west of there as "under construction". One thing that we also may not have factored into the history is that it's entirely possible that that A876 was originally only allocated to the section east of Anniesland, but with the public intention that the number be applied to the entire route once the bridges were complete.

One more question though - the A876 suddenly refers to "Glasgow Boulevard" about half way down. Is this an alternative name for Great Western Road west of Anniesland? Steven (talk) 14:51, 25 April 2022 (BST)

Good point about 'Glasgow Boulevard' Steven, I think I have now tidied that up. Rileyrob (talk) 14:57, 25 April 2022 (BST)

(I'm going to copy this section over to the talk page for the route to keep it all together, so perhaps any further replies can go there).

Trace Maps

It's been a while since I have done one and cannot get it to load on A6120 page. The file is named: A6120 ELOR update 2022 I didn't put .osm at the end since I've got it in mind that this was added automatically. Please let me know how it should be done.

That's sorted out now. You're right in that it does automatically put ".osm" at the end, but you don't need to add your username either in the save box as that's automatic too - just the filename. I've renamed the trace on the server, as it also doesn't like spaces all that much, and added it to the A6120 article along with the standard export from OSM - which I don't think is quite the effect you're looking for. If you just want your new one, then you can remove the standard trace from the trace parameter. Steven (talk) 08:10, 8 September 2022 (BST)

Thanks Steven, I forgot about not including spaces. I've removed the standard trace as you mentioned.

I've given a trace a wrong name. It is A165HullDrypoolLinkRoad1987. Please let me know how I delete it. I have saved the trace again with the correct name A165HullNorthOrbitalRoad1986.

I don't think you can from within the Maps interface itself. I've done it manually for you. Steven (talk) 09:06, 5 March 2023 (UTC)